Crab Flail - Making it Worthwhile

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[lionel23]

I'm currently writing up info sheets on all the US units, and I can't help but stop and look at the uselessness of the crab flail.

The Sherman itself is an outstanding little tank, with a powerful main gun good against infantry (and tanks with the respective upgrade), .50 cal is iffy, smoke is very useful and so are repair kits... but flails?

With engineer minesweeper teams and that you don't often see mines till its too late... the flail seems to be an overshadowed upgrade.  Sure it is good against infantry, but using the flail slows the tank down which then makes it not so good against infantry now.

My suggestion to make it useful to pick up: Give it Sherman Croc Bulldozer stats (more HP and 'skirts' for the Sherman).  Then adjust its cost to say 60 MU.  So not only is it a very visible upgrade (like skirts, makes sense since you have this HUGE contraption on the front of the tank afterall), but it would make many players want to take it against the more power AT on the axis side and provide a MU sink for allied players instead of dumping everything into say infantry or ATGs.

[Dnicee]

Please no....there are some units/upgrades in all factions that are more or less useless.

Its just wrong to make some units better.

[lionel23]

Why is that?  All units should serve a purpose or not be in the army at all.  If an upgrade isn't doing anything, it should be adjusted or changed.  That's also a big reason on the doctrine rework because there were many doctrine abilities before that were just useless that everyone skipped, and hence why the new system everything should be viable to give players an option.

[3rdCondor]

Fail Flail

[CafeMilani]

what about lowering shermans HP to 600 (like P4) while you get 36 additional HP for the crabflail upgrade (for 30muni-> u get a crabflail and 36 more HP)

doesnt this sound like a good solution to your problem lionel? it makes it worthwhile imo.

[LeoPhone]

they gave it minedetection already. it is cheap and pefectly does what its designed to do, and fast.

removing speed debuff = not good idea

[Smokaz]

OR we just give m10s mineflail

All hail leophone

[Unkn0wn]

It's already worthwhile to be honest.

[NightRain]

Mine flail should be leading the attack while other tanks follow it. That's its general purpose not a meatgrind lke most people use it like in EIRR.

Destroy mines with it. 2 mines and it paid itself back. 1 Teller it paid itself back 2 times.

[Dnicee]

Cant you see what would happend? OBM + flail + "Give it Sherman Croc Bulldozer stats (more HP and 'skirts' for the Sherman)" = dead krauts

Wher have their flammenwerfer for example. Do you want it to be buffed to?

If it would be any better it would be a rape machine? Thats just not right, mkay?

Just think of a uberfast flamer driving around the map and makes fried chicken of your company?

[Baine]

More mines in EiR would make them more useful.

[lionel23]

It doesn't do a good job of leading because it's slow and will be the focus of mass AT fire, and it only detects mines while deployed.  Now if it did allow the 'specialist' sherman to detect while undeployed so it can stop and deploy them to remove them, that'd be great.  But for 30 MUs, you can get THREE minesweeper squads or a repair kit on an M10, half a sticky bomb, and HMG... 30 MUs for a slow mineclearing ability is a bit high, I think honestly.  It needs to do more and could address the issue of weaker tanks (shermans) against axis heaviers (panthers and higher).  So do you want to invest 200 MU into that sherman to make sure it lives against that vanilla panther?  You know what I mean?

And with Baine too, you don't see enough mines to warrant getting flails, or if you do, the minesweeper unit can do it and spot, and he's only 10 MU.

[NightRain]

More mines in EiR would make them more useful.

+1

[Dnicee]

They can do so much more then just removeing mines tbh.

[Smokaz]

See now this is a perfect example of a smart doctrine choice that could have been designed.

It could be called something "Dont stop for the devil". A T1 perhaps for armor. Mineflails move at full speed. Then you could have some kind of subsidiary T3 or T4 called "We just mushed the Devil" where flank speed works on mineflail shermans.

Wouldnt be mad OP or require a bunch of passive % to make up for -% brain. It would just be insanely helpful for crocs to crush at full speed and shermans to mineflail behind them.

And contrary to popular belief, sherman crocs do take a pounding from stuff like 88s. Barring supervise, doctrine abilities etc I think its pretty damn good for a croc to be able to soak up 3-4 88 shots, leading a charge.

[Smithy17]

What about if it could move at or near full speed but give it a big accuracy penalty to its main gun while the flail is deployed?

[lionel23]

See now this is a perfect example of a smart doctrine choice that could have been designed.

It could be called something "Dont stop for the devil". A T1 perhaps for armor. Mineflails move at full speed. Then you could have some kind of subsidiary T3 or T4 called "We just mushed the Devil" where flank speed works on mineflail shermans.

Wouldnt be mad OP or require a bunch of passive % to make up for -% brain. It would just be insanely helpful for crocs to crush at full speed and shermans to mineflail behind them.

And contrary to popular belief, sherman crocs do take a pounding from stuff like 88s. Barring supervise, doctrine abilities etc I think its pretty damn good for a croc to be able to soak up 3-4 88 shots, leading a charge.

What area on a battlefield is only covered by one form of Axis AT?  Where are the mass cloaked paks and shreks and heavy tanks backing up said 88? No one uses an 88 alone, and when a sherman mine flail is leading an attacking, its not just a 1v1 fight.  Those 3-4 hits become instant death for a slow moving guy who most likely will die before reaching the first mine.

Smithy's option sounds interesting though, just the disadvantage to the upgrade makes it kind of appealing and underwhelming.

[Mysthalin]

30 MUs for a slow mineclearing ability is a bit high, I think honestly.  It needs to do more and could address the issue of weaker tanks (shermans) against axis heaviers (panthers and higher).  So do you want to invest 200 MU into that sherman to make sure it lives against that vanilla panther?  You know what I mean?

It doesn't just detect and clear mines - it crushes infantry like crazy - infantry don't "see" the mineflail when it's deployed and they run into it like it wasn't there. I remember my 6 mineflail flank speed coy. It was funny, I was killing more infantry with the flank speed mineflail than I was with the main gun, and that's if I DIDN'T get on a road. That's why it does not retain full speed while mineflailing.
Not only that, the mineflail extends the sherman's chasis in the game's Physics engine, making the sherman far more viable at ramming into houses and destroying them. That is particularly useful at not only making sure an HMG dies un-recrewably, but that also the house is never garrisoned by an HMG again.

What are you talking about 200 munitions invested in taking on panthers and tigers? Are you implying it would be a good idea that a 30 mun upgrade should allow a 395 MP 240 FU 12 pop generalist tank take on a 680 MP 500 FU 15 pop Anti-Tank specialist tank? Even your afore-mentioned 200 munitions shouldn't allow that to happen, not ever. If you wish to take on panthers and tigers on equal terms, use the Pershing.

I've not seen one good point of reasoning as to why the Sherman Mineflail is NOT a worthwhile ability. It's an in-built protector from mines, crushinator extention on a strong and mobile platform, which the minesweeper engineer hardly is. Not only that, killing a mine, rather than clearing it is a very good misleading tactic for the enemy. He believes you have took damage when you, in fact, didn't. It's useful for what it is, and at 30 munitions? It's damn worth it.

[lionel23]

That's under a doctrine power though, what about Shermans with Infantry or Airborne coy? They don't get speed, so we have to deal with the 'reduced speed'.  Why should the ability be balanced towards a single doctrine and not for the overall army, I thought that was the methodology we were following?

And a 200MU Sherman shouldn't take on a panther or outclass it, but it should increase its survival, just like a Churchill against a panther.  Its not going to win but it can stay alive a bit longer to get out of 'Oh shit' situations.  And the built-in mine detector only works when its deployed, so unless you plan to drive around the whole map with it deployed, its useless.

[Unkn0wn]

It could be called something "Dont stop for the devil". A T1 perhaps for armor. Mineflails move at full speed. Then you could have some kind of subsidiary T3 or T4 called "We just mushed the Devil" where flank speed works on mineflail shermans.

I used to run obm flank speed mine flail shermans in the old doctrines, it was retarded lol