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[Smokaz]

Look at this game Crazy. Me and pak are doing fine.. up until triple repairing t17s start showing up. (OBM + Field Repair) Look at how the T17s savage our lines, go behind us, tear up reinforcements and attempts at capping.

Honestly this unit is a extreme pain in the ass to counter.. and with armors super repairing abilities it will get away over and over again.. all while sputtering death from its little rape gun.

I dont think T17 should be able to cap. Its already extremely adept at killing infantry no matter what kind of infantry it is who tries to backcap, which is supposed to be a legitimate counter to armor spam. Except it isnt against the american armor doctrine, because the most adept anti infantry (infantry are the primary cappers) vehicle also caps.

This game doesn't prove any balance argument. But its t17s used like this, that makes me think that the stun outcry is a load of shit and that this change only marginally deals with what makes the t17 so ridicolous.

I still hope for the rest of the team to realize how badly Wehr needs a equivalent to the mobile sticky, ATHT, button type of ability to function against vehicle/tank spam in EIRR. If they had, brits and americans could get their staghounds back shooting V1 shells for all I care because then wehr would have the factional capacity to field counters.

[Smokaz]

http://www.filefront.com/15848255/bs.rar

[Demon767]

or lower fuel cost

[Mgallun74]

Look at this game Crazy. Me and pak are doing fine.. up until triple repairing t17s start showing up. (OBM + Field Repair) Look at how the T17s savage our lines, go behind us, tear up reinforcements and attempts at capping.

Honestly this unit is a extreme pain in the ass to counter.. and with armors super repairing abilities it will get away over and over again.. all while sputtering death from its little rape gun.

I dont think T17 should be able to cap. Its already extremely adept at killing infantry no matter what kind of infantry it is who tries to backcap, which is supposed to be a legitimate counter to armor spam. Except it isnt against the american armor doctrine, because the most adept anti infantry (infantry are the primary cappers) vehicle also caps.

This game doesn't prove any balance argument. But its t17s used like this, that makes me think that the stun outcry is a load of shit and that this change only marginally deals with what makes the t17 so ridicolous.

I still hope for the rest of the team to realize how badly Wehr needs a equivalent to the mobile sticky, ATHT, button type of ability to function against vehicle/tank spam in EIRR. If they had, brits and americans could get their staghounds back shooting V1 shells for all I care because then wehr would have the factional capacity to field counters.

Change the T17 to match exactly what the Staghound does for the Brits, as they are the same damn vehicle, first off the T17 never served wth us army, second it never had a rapid firing gun like that, not even in british service.. its one of the ultimate fake units is game.

[Baine]

Listen to Mgallun, go to hell T17 freaky fake unit sent from El Diabolo!

[CrazyWR]

watching shortly

[3rdCondor]

A panther tank shouldn't be the only plausible counter to a light vehicle. Give anti tank grenades to wehrmacht, buff fausts, whatever! Do something!

- 3rdCondor

[sheffer]

real replay to view a real problem. Blaming on panther spam is stupied after that

[Lai]

savage our lines (like a boss)
go behind us (like a boss)
tear up reinforcements (like a boss)
attempts at capping (like a boss)

<3 Smokaz 

[Two]

smokaz is just noob, t17s dont bother me.

[BigDick]

i have to quote myself from 1.5 month ago

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=13418.msg229095#msg229095

these points are very important ones since it completely negates pop effictive counters
 - u need infantry and fast AT to be able to hunt it and backcap
- even a medium tank is no counter since it get stunned -> T17 gets a way (best case) or your tank gets taken out while its stunned by other AT(worst case)
- upgun puma do nuts since it need to move and than its accuracy sucks then

there is not even a little pop ineffective counter for wehrmacht against the T17
only thing is to wait somewhere with AT and bait it into a trap
but since it can take some beatings and has a high dodge + fast + maybe field repair of armor and/or OBM its able to get out and come back for a couple of times

one issue got fixed but it may be not enough

to move the T17 to brit is imho not a good thing because it would be at least as powerfull as the stun T17 was

(bait counters=tanks into bren buttons and take them out using firefly, 6pndr, piat, flankspeed cromwell ...)

if brit get the T17 the first thing i'll do is making a company around this vehicle because it perfectly fits to the other particular to powerful brit units

[Mgallun74]

i have to quote myself from 1.5 month ago

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=13418.msg229095#msg229095

these points are very important ones since it completely negates pop effictive counters
 - u need infantry and fast AT to be able to hunt it and backcap
- even a medium tank is no counter since it get stunned -> T17 gets a way (best case) or your tank gets taken out while its stunned by other AT(worst case)
- upgun puma do nuts since it need to move and than its accuracy sucks then

there is not even a little pop ineffective counter for wehrmacht against the T17
only thing is to wait somewhere with AT and bait it into a trap
but since it can take some beatings and has a high dodge + fast + maybe field repair of armor and/or OBM its able to get out and come back for a couple of times

one issue got fixed but it may be not enough

to move the T17 to brit is imho not a good thing because it would be at least as powerfull as the stun T17 was

(bait counters=tanks into bren buttons and take them out using firefly, 6pndr, piat, flankspeed cromwell ...)

if brit get the T17 the first thing i'll do is making a company around this vehicle because it perfectly fits to the other particular to powerful brit units

no, iam saying get rid of it all together.. its a complete farce of a unit, probably worst in the game imho... shouldnt be in the us unit list at all, brits can keep the current staghound as its legit.  Us just use M8s

[MonthlyMayhem]

A panther tank shouldn't be the only plausible counter to a light vehicle. Give anti tank grenades to wehrmacht, buff fausts, whatever! Do something!

- 3rdCondor

Upgunned Pumas, ostwinds, P4's. T17s cant penetrate armor tbh, they have a hard time penetrating half track armor..

[Baine]

All those stun and button abilities will make for stunlock in an RTS. Comon guys. This ain't WoW :O

[BigDick]

no, iam saying get rid of it all together.. its a complete farce of a unit, probably worst in the game imho... shouldnt be in the us unit list at all, brits can keep the current staghound as its legit.  Us just use M8s

i would not say so it can be fit to us but with the T2 armor choice it can cap territory and that might be to much
same goes to m8 (that almost no one use since t17 is cheaper in munitions)
even caping shermans would be much better than caping light armor because they are some kind of limited (resource costs) and slower and have no epic dodge for harassment in the back and caping at same time

[Smokaz]

no, iam saying get rid of it all together.. its a complete farce of a unit, probably worst in the game imho... shouldnt be in the us unit list at all, brits can keep the current staghound as its legit.  Us just use M8s

i would not say so it can be fit to us but with the T2 armor choice it can cap territory and that might be to much
same goes to m8 (that almost no one use since t17 is cheaper in munitions)
even caping shermans would be much better than caping light armor because they are some kind of limited (resource costs) and slower and have no epic dodge for harassment in the back and caping at same time

Capping shermans is actually a pretty good idea, you should suggest that with some arguements for why it would improve gameplay somewhere. (If you still play and care)

[MonthlyMayhem]

Whats wrong with capping M8's?

[Baine]

Whats wrong with capping M8's?

Nothing. But somethings wrong with capping T17s.

[MonthlyMayhem]

Oh okay, I just saw somewhere in the thread something was wrong with M8's capping. Maybe my eyes are just playing tricks on me.

[CrazyWR]

4:22-sitting in a pair of houses with mgs and no AT anywhere near just taking shots from a t17.  Instead of getting into a building with the storms, you just walk away.  Your  failure, not super OP t17.  Also, picking up a zook, giving you 3 at weapons and trying to clear an mg with it? then dropping the shrek and not picking it up again? fail...

4:55-and again 30 seconds later, instead of shooting the t17, you shoot the rifles with the shreks first.  Even if you get off 2 shots the next time, it doesn't matter...everything dies.  Should have dealt with it the first time.

5:52-you rush a sniper with 2 bikes, reveal it, then drive off without hurting it for 10 seconds, allowing them to get forces over to cover it, and even with 4 bikes, you fail to kill it because it has shotblockers and the entire enemy army there now.  At this point, despite already having a sniper on the field, and with 2 rifle squads with shreks on the field, along with a quad with rapes bikes, you still call on more.  Thats poor play tbh.  Should save them to counter a possible second one, they are absolutely useless at this point.

6:50 well, somehow you got lucky and killed it.  Was a nice flank attack.  Sniper should not have been up there with solely KCH to fire at.

~8:30-t17 goes around behind, you send a pak and a stuh, then decide to stop looking for it, turn around, and ignore it. All your AT is useless because you can't make up your mind what to attack, and the kch gets slaughtered w/o your support.  

9:15-why didn't you turn the ost to face the t17 where it would have had a much harder time penetrating the ostwind?  Would have easily killed it off instead of you losing the fight.

9:45-failure to turn your pak means you lose it to field repair t17.  You're better than that.  Also should have  blocked it instead of allowing the circle.

10:30-no sniper on the field, but you call more  bikes out.  Why?  Another poor decision...you're having problems with light vehicles and vet3 rifles, since pak already has another ost on, you should have called on a panther or stug or some sort of AT, since you know more AT is coming to counter the dual ostwinds, which are the answer to everything they have on the field atm.  Also, you're wasting a full health kch squad backcapping when the volks squad does the job just fine at 1 or 2 men.  Should be fighting the vetted rifles with the kch.

11:20-oh look at that, 2 m10s.  the AT with your osts would have handled it easily, but now you're in trouble.  Also, the kch squad dies because you didnt send the osts over there as soon as you cleared the middle and instead wasted time shooting a triage.  Also, once paks ost and your stuh seriously hurt one t17 and he pops repairs, you let it go instead of finishing it off and instead chase the full health one around back behind you.  FINISH FIRST, THEN GO FINISH THE OTHER.  Otherwise you just have to kill it over again...

11:50-finally the dual paks show up, but by now they are too late and one gets slaughtered by the t17 and not in position to save the ostwinds, which could have kept the t17s off the paks.  Needs much better callin coordination tbh.  Both ostwinds fall because of the lack of AT in the right place at the right time, despite the completely obvious unit combination and response.    Also, pak having nothing but volks and a sniper on the field vs all these vehicles is just stupid.

12:40-you actually got lucky here, unknown could have circled the pak and cleared it, but he let pak recrew it and ran off.   However, you made yet another poor callin decision. There are 2 m10s on the field, along with at least 1 t17 that you know of. Yet you callin not shreks, not a panther, but a stuh42.  



~13:30-you and pak finally get it together and call in shrek storms and a panther.  The storms die obviously, sitting on a road shooting m10s is a recipe for death, b ut the panther should clear the m10s easily...its too bad you lost 3 ATGs to the m10s/t17s here because you failed to support them properly or get them into the action at the right time.  Calling them in too late and then pushing them too far up cost you a ton.  

14:30-you now have a tiger and a vet3 panther on the field.  Along with a vet3 stuh42. You should be able to handle the vet3 pershing no problem, but instead you try to solo with your tiger, get caught shooting at hte pointless triage AGAIN(THEY HAVE NO INFANTRY, IT DOESNT MATTER RIGHT NOW), take a couple of unnecessary shots, then get stuck between the pershing and a vet3 atg w/ ap rounds and vet3 rangers when pak goes to repair.  The paks you ask him to recrew all died because you didnt read the game well enough and see clearly the obvious counter to your ostwinds clearing the flank.  



The t17s did well, ya, but tbh, you overstate their impact.  You just need to play more conservatively.  Send an ostwind around with your backcappers if you know they have t17s, don't waste kch squads backcapping when you already have volks there to do it, dont callin the wrong units at the wrong times, dont waste units when you cant get the job done, just pull back regroup.  Against armor companies with t17s, you need to keep at together, at least 2 pieces at all times, yet you didn't.  You typically had 1 piece of at and maybe a stuh/ostwind around.  That isn't going to kill a t17, but somehow you refuse to see that.  Somehow you think they are just going to stand in front of you and die.  That isn't how it works.  If you insist on continuing to play like that, for the love of god at least block the damn thing so it can't circle your pak constantly.  To be honest, you got massively outplayed,  and that is why you lost, not b/c of vet, not b/c of t17s, but because of horrible callin management, bad team coordination except the attack on the sniper, and trying to force a backcap war on a map more suited to support spam camping.  One more thing.  When you get obm company's units down to low health, finish them off, dont let them run away.  Killing the same unit 3 times is hard to do, but you repeatedly let them wander away w/ dmg engines or at very low health...