Current gameplay is pathetic.

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[winisez]

you have to make it team automatch, people playing with their friends is a huge thing in this mod, if it is made impossible the mod will die.

[LeoPhone]

i think the problem of the t17 can be fixed really easy.

without it's sandbags  it will die to a faust and a puma shot.

so fix = t17 can only buy sandbags at vet1.

i think you can even give it the stun back then, it will die so easy.

[Mysthalin]

But then vet 1 and above T17s will become OP again.
Why should a unit suck up until a certain level after which it becomes horribly broken?

[LeoPhone]

well the t17 is just broken. right now its OP all the time, relic fixed it by giving it sandbags at vet 1 instead of you can buy it. ofcourse vet works different in EiR but its still better than what it is right now.

you will also see just a few good t17s coz they will die so fast without their sandbags its impossible to vet em up.

[Tymathee]

I kinda agree with Leo. T-17's used to not be used as extensively until they got the sandbags and then they were spammed. Maybe just raise the price of sandbags, they're what really make the t-17 great.

Or, you can make the acc on the move that it has lower, because what makes it great is that it barely loses anything while on the move.

[Mysthalin]

It has a 0.5 moving accuracy modifier on it's gun? What are you talking about tym.

Relic didn't fix anything. T17s are very much so OP in vCoH, and they were MADE to be like that, so people buy TOV more. Too bad noone was bothered to release a patch yet that fixes them.

[Tymathee]

It has a 0.5 moving accuracy modifier on it's gun? What are you talking about tym.

Relic didn't fix anything. T17s are very much so OP in vCoH, and they were MADE to be like that, so people buy TOV more. Too bad noone was bothered to release a patch yet that fixes them.

seriously? hard to tell, but I'd agree with having sandbags only purchasable at either vet 1 or vet 2, makes a lot of sense. You'd see a lot more of them and they'd be suicided around less. Plus, with the half health, a faust actually has a good chance to crit it.

[Mysthalin]

Yet again - why should we implement a balance fallacy that makes the unit useless up until a certain level and then it becomes OP again? It makes absolutely no sense.
Good, conservative players that play a lot will still get vet 2/3 T17s and rape with them like they would normally. Bad, aggressive or casual players will never get to the required vet level and whine that the thing is UP. It would punish the bad, casual and aggressive players for no good reason, and add to the discrepancy between a new and an old company. The direction the mod is taking is one that tries to make it as easy as possible for casual players to compete, without impeding the mechanic of "levelling up" for the "hardcore" player base. Doing what you suggest would be completely against that.

[EIRRMod]

you have to make it team automatch, people playing with their friends is a huge thing in this mod, if it is made impossible the mod will die.

Tis both, if you can believe it.

[lionel23]

As Mys says, it's silly to balance something via level.  If this ever made it into the mod, Axis tank skirts shouldn't be available till vet 1 or 2 too by your reasoning Tym.  Does that idea not sound silly also?  Think about that.

The T17 is doctrine specific (meaning it is only available to one of the six allied doctrine armies), it is more expensive than a greyhound in costs, and no longer has stun.  Its primary role is anti-inf and it cannot counter tanks and the like.  It's no machine-gun ostwind and runs similiarly like a hotchkiss, minus any sort of decent penetration against vehicles or tanks (though given an unsupported Mortar HT, for example, it will eventually kill it).

[LeoPhone]

Yet again - why should we implement a balance fallacy that makes the unit useless up until a certain level and then it becomes OP again? It makes absolutely no sense.
Good, conservative players that play a lot will still get vet 2/3 T17s and rape with them like they would normally. Bad, aggressive or casual players will never get to the required vet level and whine that the thing is UP. It would punish the bad, casual and aggressive players for no good reason, and add to the discrepancy between a new and an old company. The direction the mod is taking is one that tries to make it as easy as possible for casual players to compete, without impeding the mechanic of "levelling up" for the "hardcore" player base. Doing what you suggest would be completely against that.

give it sandbags at vet 1 is actually good. doctrine abilities shouldnt be just silly things that make you pwn everything. they should need skill to use them to their maximum effect. and giving t17 sandbags at vet1 is just that becouse it will take skill to get it to vet1 with such low health and it will need skill to keep it alive (even more now it doenst have stun)

renember this is a doctrine unit, it shouldnt have to be as every other unit. thats what makes doctrines special. just look at the bergertiger. thats obviously not a standard eir unit.

[Mysthalin]

How is it actually good? you keep saying it's good, but you don't base it with anything.
Give an argument as to how it would actually help game-play.

[DuckOfDoom]

I am going to have to disagree on the vet requirements for sandbags for the reasons stated earlier, highlighting that a t17 needs 6 (or 7) xp for vet 1, which is laughably low.

Also there is alot of rage about t17s, but goddamn, as someone who uses them in "spam" numbers, I have to say that they are glass cannons. They effectively murder infantry and infantry AT, that's true, but anything with threads and a cannon ruins their day. Tanks aside though, Wehrmacht has a direct counter to this unit, which is cheaper and superior to the T17 in light armor hunting roles.

Sandbagged T17 - 330mp 85f 60mun

50mm Upgunned puma - 300mp 50f 0mun

A 50mm puma will literally give the t17 a run for its money (as in, the t17 will end up running away), or tie it up in combat long enough for the support to show up and finish the t17 off. People seem to forget, that while the t17 excels at killing infantry, it has difficulty penetrating half track armor.

Some people just refuse to field pumas and suffer the consequences. Its stupid to whine about getting beat by a unit that you didn't bring a counter to, the argument effectively dissolves to the mine spam tactic argument (i.e. its hard to beat if you don't have minesweepers. Well, no shit!).

Beside, you don't even have to rely on pumas to beat the t17s. Read the Smokaz "How do I counter?" thread, there are at least 4 or 5 other suggestions on the list composed of staple wehr units.

Some people also complain that you cant hit the t17 with panzershreks. First of all, PE tank hunter grenadiers hit the t17s with shreks fairly reliably (not great or anything, not without exposing the squad to danger, but fairly reliably), especially cloaked from cover. Second of all, panzershreks are just as bad at hitting t17s as recoilless rifles are at hitting pumas. Think about it!

That said, I think the price of sandbags should be increased to 90 munitions, to make the m8 skirts look attractive in comparecent.

Right now it takes 85 munitions to make a t17 combat effective vs 105 munitions to make the m8 combat effective (machinegun + skirts + repair, no mines).

If we are talking about making M8 a valuable alternative to the T17 in an armor company, either give the m8 machine gun good (.30cal) suppression or give it more mines. At the moment I really see no point in using the M8 in an armor company, as I am forced to pay more munitions for a unit that is much, much worse at its role (anti - infantry support).

[Heartmann]

Right MY TURN!!!

Look Wher has good counters, but PE on the other hand i can tell you its a pain in the ass! Everything up to Panther and Pnz 4 IS dies to small arms, I MEAN EVERYTHING! (now im not talking about TH) And Marders cant even crush inf, you can if u want kill a marder by running upp some Mandos and shoot it to shit. And the t17 and stags have a field day with al these untis except for the panth, since al they need to do is rush it and boom marder dead. Ofc there is tread break, and yes its is very good, and I know that you have to combine arms, but even thou i have a fuck awful time countering al these different shit, from zooks on everything and nades and stickes, which also makes the us inf a very usable versetile inf, and forcing you micro very well or your basically cooked!

The thing is dear people, its no use in complaining, Even if al this above is true at the moment, THE DOCS ARE NOT FINISHED YET!!!! So yea ofc you are going to see gimmicks and spams since most people want callins and spec units. Just give it time.

[DuckOfDoom]

Unfortunately, countering t17s is not the biggest PE problem atm, PE seems to be the hardest side to balance in EIR so far.

Marders on their own definitely wont do, but give them a spotter (a cloaked ketten) and a good position and their chances improve.

Tank hunters in cover will fuck a t17 up, but not without exposing themselves to danger.

What does work fairly well are the classics - halftrack with shreks will be able to blow up a t17 point blank while preserving the squads from return fire, but that's a very expensive counter and alot of things could go wrong here.

A 100% reliable counter is the light AT halftrack with a threadbreaker, but again its pretty expensive at 255mp 95m 60f and the threadbreaker is on uses I believe.

So yeah, unless you have alot of teller mines, you are limited to ambushes or asking your wehr teammate for help.

Also, smokaz's thread for the lazy:

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=14041.30

[Heartmann]

Well no, the Tread breaker is not on uses, it is however on what, 130 sec recharge? or more, and LTHT die to 2 AT shots, and after just on they half healthed and then almost al it takes is a stickey and some small arms fire, and concidering that the fing thing costs 95 mu u are lucky if you get a shot of 2-3 times, while the stickies cost what 50-60 mu? and you have an entire squad to take hits before, and once thorwn they always hit, one game used fire up on ac and ran away got half way across map and the bloody thing was still persuing me its was fing crazy!

[DuckOfDoom]

Non doctrinal vet 0 sticky has crap all range and long wind up time but otherwise I agree.

[Mgallun74]

i guess putting a long range sticky range as a doct choice was bad lol.. i wouldnt know, i dont use them lol.

[lionel23]

Again it's a doctrine choice, which means only US Infantry players (those without access to the awesome RR or Pershing/T17 units) can field it and that is if they give up Locked and Loaded or the More health/Rifle training doctrine choice.

+1 with DuckorDoom, pretty muched summed up my feelings on it, wish the M8 Greyhound was a better unit, way too expensive an MU sink or had a better MG for its anti-infantry role.

Also Heartman, most PE HT's take no damage from small arms fire or have to be under small arms fire for like many, many minutes to take even some remote damage.  PE HT is not vCOH armor, but American HT armor which is almost immune to small arms fire.

[winisez]

SE countering t17 is funny, means you need an overwhelming amount of AT on the field at all times just in-case 1 8 pop-cap unit turns up.