realistic killings

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[3rdCondor]

TBH guys, the only way to truly be realistic would be to compensate for fuel usage because that is the reason why German tanks stopped moving. Tanks are heavy and the heavier they are, the more fuel.

[Dragon2008]

This topic reminds me of the countless topics about which is the better modern tank (Challenger/ M1A2/ Leopard/ T-90. Those topic just turned into biased views and patriotic opinions saying that thier nations tank/s was the best. No-one ever listened to the facts.

The only way to ever resolve with issue which will never be, is to put each tank against each other and see who wins. There is too many variables to actully calulate and understand which is better.

This topic has gone far off topic from its orginal post so I suggest it gets locked.

[3rdCondor]

This topic reminds me of the countless topics about which is the better modern tank (Challenger/ M1A2/ Leopard/ T-90. Those topic just turned into biased views and patriotic opinions saying that thier nations tank/s was the best. No-one ever listened to the facts.

The only way to ever resolve with issue with will never be, is to put each tank against each other and see who wins. There is too many variables to actully calulate and understand which is better.

This topic has gone far off topic from its orginal post so I suggest it gets locked.

Probably should be.

[gamesguy2]

I memory severs me right, didn't WindCrysMary actually read your reference and notice that in fact the Americans where all veteran and that the 5th Panzer was a bunch of noobs with little training that fell time and time again into American ambushes? Thus the reason for the discrepancy with popular belief of German tank superiority?

I didn't read it and I'm only going on memory but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Pretty much, but why shouldn't that be reflected in the tank itself?  The German tanks were excellent on paper.  But they never had the ability to build those tanks with the proper materials and precision nor the ability to crew the tanks with experienced crews.

By late 1944, which is when CoH is set in.  The German tanks were built using shotty steel, quickly cobbled together with many mechanical faults and flaws, used subpar ammunition, were mostly crewed by raw recruits with little experience, etc.

Why shouldn't a tank's crew be taken into account?  Everyone talks about the blitzkrieg, but the Germans had inferior tanks during the first Battle of France.  They had superior doctrine and perhaps superior training and  won the battle.   By late 1944, the shoe is on the other foot.  The allies are the ones with the veteran troops and the Germans are the ones throwing raw recruits into the meat grinder.  Between Operation Bagration and Operation Overlord the German army had lost almost all its experienced units, it became a pale shadow of its former self.

TBH guys, the only way to truly be realistic would be to compensate for fuel usage because that is the reason why German tanks stopped moving. Tanks are heavy and the heavier they are, the more fuel.

Why?  That just adds to the tank's flaw.  It'd be like building a nuclear powered warship when your country has no access to reactor grade uranium.

[BigDick]

And realistic resources.
Allies spam tanks.
Axis rape tanks with few good tanks.

Realistic tank battle would involve shermans and M18s raping panthers and P4s.

This may sound surprising, but American tanks in WWII had a positive K:D ratio vs German tanks.  American tanks were just better.

no wonder we have that balancing mess with this kind of surreal imagination by someone who do the RGD coding 

[Rocksitter]

 They dont even have accurate tank v tank numbers to be true you see different numbers at different places,  and by stating one battle has proof of the whole war is just well you know.....

 but you can look into the future to see what blueprints were used in future tanks...

 

[Spartan_Marine88]

If your talking tank vs tank you are wrong the  only reason the allies killed more tanks is 1) air superiority 2) fuel 3) ammunition  4) supply     not in order....

Is that why at the battle of Arracourt, with fog preventing allied air support, the 4th armored division destroyed 107 tanks(mostly brand new panthers) and 30 assault guns for loss of 14 shermans and 7 stuarts(M5). 

All you have is your opinion, I'm citing facts and studies by the war department.

Same war department that still has half of the ww2 facts classified as Top Secret?

lets face it American History is not to be trusted. Want to find out the truth read an allied Countries review of your battles during whatever period. It is likely to be biased, but they won't gloss over the bad parts and shine the good parts.  Heck in some states you aren't allowed to mention stuff like agent orange in school. So do you truly think they would allow such facts like, we were 20 years behind the world do to our isolationist efforts before ww2, and our tanks were crap to float around?

Also your enemies view on your troops. Rommel respected the Australians, The Brits were feared and whenever Canadians stepped to the front, the Germans sent heavy reinforcements to the spot. But the Americans were only respected because of their numbers and resources.

oh yeah, as an example apparently the American rubber tank doctrine was kept top secret till a couple of years ago. That throws off a lot of statistics. Also the Allies were using a pinhole satellite for spying. (released about 5 years ago).

[Mysthalin]

Ever heard the words that History is written by the victor, spartan?

[Spartan_Marine88]

All too often.

[Rocksitter]

Ever heard the words that History is written by the victor, spartan?

 Mind letting the people know who said this...

[Spartan_Marine88]

Ever heard the words that History is written by the victor, spartan?

 Mind letting the people know who said this...

Winston Churchill

[brn4meplz]

And realistic resources.
Allies spam tanks.
Axis rape tanks with few good tanks.

Realistic tank battle would involve shermans and M18s raping panthers and P4s.

This may sound surprising, but American tanks in WWII had a positive K:D ratio vs German tanks.  American tanks were just better.

LIES. I call shenanigans on that. You need to find me proof from several sources for that. because from the Normandy invasion onwards I know that 1st and 2nd SS panzer corps routinely fought massively understrength in Tanks and men and routinely stuck it to the allied armies.

[VERTIGGO]

gamesguy's arguments are just so blindly indoctrinated it's hilarious. I'm actually not sure he isn't being completely sarcastic...

Going back and forth arguing one point and then contradicting it to argue another... it's making my head spin. Early war = German veterans but really no skill just "sitting on a road shooting cromwells while shells bounce off"? What about Kursk? I guess the T-34, "often credited as the most effective, efficient and influential design of World War II" was just a pile of garbage compared to the Sherman.

By the way, Spartan is entirely right. I remember several times my platoon engaged enemies and though we often saw exactly how many enemies we killed, the battalion reported about 4 times as many enemy KIA. History is a very complex game of evaluating hearsay against hearsay.

[Pak88mm]

gamesguy's arguments are just so blindly indoctrinated it's hilarious. I'm actually not sure he isn't being completely sarcastic...

Going back and forth arguing one point and then contradicting it to argue another... it's making my head spin. Early war = German veterans but really no skill just "sitting on a road shooting cromwells while shells bounce off"? What about Kursk? I guess the T-34, "often credited as the most effective, efficient and influential design of World War II" was just a pile of garbage compared to the Sherman.

By the way, Spartan is entirely right. I remember several times my platoon engaged enemies and though we often saw exactly how many enemies we killed, the battalion reported about 4 times as many enemy KIA. History is a very complex game of evaluating hearsay against hearsay.

i lost it when he called german sighting optics worst than american. ROFL everyone has countlessly acknowledge how superior german optics were to allies. It was never a contest.

[wittman420]

i agree with pak for once, gamesguy i hope your were being sarcastic, if u warnt i feel bad for u.

[gamesguy2]

I like how out of everyone, I'm the only one citing sources.

Saying it doesn't make it true.

[Mysthalin]

-You know, panzerpioneer minesweepers are like 10x better than wehrmacht minesweepers.
-Why?
-Because I said so.
-But they have the exact same stats!
-I don't care you're an idiot if you think otherwise, or you're being sarcastic ololololol.

[wittman420]

haha your so full of it man just cause u think its right dosent mean its true, and all that garbage u been posting could have easaly been writen by yourself. or just garbage  find on the internet.

[Spartan_Marine88]

You did not cite any sources. citing a source would be giving a web link (not reliable), article, or book with page and paragraph. I did not cite my sources as i did not feel like digging out my first hand account books, and third hand account books and spending the time to cite my sources, as it would not have done any good as the chance of you or anyone else having said books on hand are slim to none.

[brn4meplz]

Casualty figures need to be corroborated by both sides. Games Guy, I could give you 100 examples of Regimental war diaries claiming to have knocked out 50 axis tanks. Shit even in the heaviest part of the  Falaise pocket they only found 187 tanks and self propelled guns. Only 38 were knocked out by Ground fire or Air to ground rockets. which means the rest were destroyed by their crews. If the allies can't kill tanks in a shooting gallery...