stags, t17s and pumas(50mm)

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[Tymathee]

this is where Leo fails a lot, he doesn't understand the rock/paper/scissors dynamic of the coh engine sometimes and thinks that you should be able to massively spam something and it be effective vs all.

stags are bad vs tanks and are good vs lv and infantry
50mm puma's are great vs tanks (get 2 or 3 of these babies you'll see allies armor shit themselves) they hit lv reliably well but dont do a lot of damage they're not an lv counter, they're used to hit infantry and be a support weapon with tanks. Use a combo of p4/stag/pather with a 50mm, it works really well. I used to have 3 vet 2 upguns before I lost them all lol.

t-17 fails vs armor and light vehicles but is win vs infantry, theres no comparison.

and i love how you left out how the m8 rapes puma's but when its upguned the puma wins vs the m8.

then there's the wehr ht which seems to have two mg42's on it and can suppress really well much like the old staghound.

and what about the 50mm halftrack and LAT? 50mm's rape allied light vehicles when used correctly and the lat can slow them down and with the free FF, destroys infantry more reliably than a t-17.

[BigDick]

Replay/proof? Why dont you go and test a upgunned puma vs tommies, it will kill them tons more reliably than it will kill american infantry.

because it has against both same accuracy modifier of 0.5? that make sense  

probably this "strange" impression comes because the non upgun puma totaly blows against brit soldier armor

[Nimitz]

Smokaz, watch the last game in the replay section ("Blob."), 2 brit players in it, a couple upgunned pumas from Leo. There's my proof. Oh, and, the other couple thousand replays you can find on GR with upgunned pumas vs brits being displayed.
Remember I'm not saying upgunned pumas suck vs brit infantry, I'm saying it's highly unlikely to kill 2 sapper/tommy squad members with one shot.
I bet a sherman will kill 2 men of a gren/storm squad much more often than pumas vs tommies.

I COULD post a massive mathematical stats crunch proving that the mathematical hope of killing 2 men [in a]=?[per]? shot from an upgun puma is something like 50 percent, but why bother? It's not like you'll ever agree to it, Nimitz - you'll just keep going in circles on how you "feel" it's different.

50%? Wow. Does this forum have a "user-ignore" option or something like that? I'm starting to feel like this is Relic News or something.

[Mysthalin]

If I post in a shot, I mean in a shot - I still leave room for misses, which, with the upgun puma's 0.5 moving accuracy is not at all a preposterous prospect.

Replays mean nearly nothing : GR has vCoH replays, not EiRR replays. And Leophone is not the best player around(nothing personal Leo) - basing the effectiveness of the puma upgun entirely on his experience with it would be just silly.

[Smokaz]

Keep in mind - this thing about upgun pumas gibbing sapper squads in one shot is mysthalin the exaggerator's words, not mine. So I dont have to remember anything. If your memory needs refreshing however, its right in this thread: upgun pumas are perform much better against british infantry than they do against american. Thats what Im saying. The statistical evidence? They have 25% more accuracy against them. Also, americans field a lot more ab and rangers than british field high health infantry.. cause they dont have any. Upguns are less likely to 1 shot a ranger or a airborne, but they will oneshot tommies out of cover w/ no captain in sector.

[vivie5]

Staghounds are still unable to vet up, for more than six months now. That would be a lovely bug to see fixed

Stag's are pretty good against German infantry, I usually run 2 till I can get to Croc's. Shreks do blow them away, and the Germans never seem to have a lack of shrek's

[LeoPhone]

this is where Leo fails a lot, he doesn't understand the rock/paper/scissors dynamic of the coh engine sometimes and thinks that you should be able to massively spam something and it be effective vs all.

i think a spam must kill everything?

im telling the exact opposite: allies blob shit and win, needs change

stags are bad vs tanks and are good vs lv and infantry

stugs without a turret are not really effective at chasing these things down, so the counter will be a 260 fuel p4 to a 50 fu lv?

t-17 fails vs armor and light vehicles but is win vs infantry, theres no comparison.

t17 will most likely penetrate puma from the back and sometimes at the front. get 2 t17s and you kill a puma with ease.
dmg puma does vs these things is just a joke.

and i love how you left out how the m8 rapes puma's but when its upguned the puma wins vs the m8.

then there's the wehr ht which seems to have two mg42's on it and can suppress really well much like the old staghound.

and what about the 50mm halftrack and LAT? 50mm's rape allied light vehicles when used correctly and the lat can slow them down and with the free FF, destroys infantry more reliably than a t-17.

even though m8s are spammed too sometimes, these things just seem to get hit more easy. m8s are fine

noone spams wehr hts, and one m8 or anything will stop them.

50mms have a hard time hitting stags, and once the stag gets close it is game over.



pumas might snipe some inf, but they dont get near the effectiveness as the t17, and the stag also supresses.

and they suck at chasing down lvs too.
watch the replay, puma should be faster(cohstats) but it isnt and it fails at hitting when both are moving.

[LeoPhone]

I COULD post a massive mathematical stats crunch proving that the mathematical hope of killing 2 men in a shot from an upgun puma is something like 50 percent, but why bother? It's not like you'll ever agree to it, Nimitz - you'll just keep going in circles on how you "feel" it's different.

i totally agree with you myst

http://www.xfire.com/video/2b8f45/

[Grundwaffe]

I COULD post a massive mathematical stats crunch proving that the mathematical hope of killing 2 men in a shot from an upgun puma is something like 50 percent, but why bother? It's not like you'll ever agree to it, Nimitz - you'll just keep going in circles on how you "feel" it's different.

i totally agree with you myst

http://www.xfire.com/video/2b8f45/

Sweet irony

[Smokaz]

I COULD post a massive mathematical stats crunch proving that the mathematical hope of killing 2 men in a shot from an upgun puma is something like 50 percent, but why bother? It's not like you'll ever agree to it, Nimitz - you'll just keep going in circles on how you "feel" it's different.

i totally agree with you myst

http://www.xfire.com/video/2b8f45/

Did you notice that those tommies were *pinned*?

[Demon767]

once again leo, you posted a fail video. eg. the sherman fail video 

[LeoPhone]

once again leo, you posted a fail video. eg. the sherman fail video 

sherman video? you mean the p4 vs sherman vid? what was wrong with that?

[Demon767]

it proved that you do not know about the sherman buff

[LeoPhone]

well yeah, the sherman 76mm fires faster in eir.

but that did not matter no shit  coz the 76 sherman already beat the p4 in coh.


and about the puma vid: so what they are supressed?
do they get less received dmg or something? cohstats only says MORE dmg after 10 secs http://coh-stats.com/Info:Suppression

[Mysthalin]

When a unit is pinned, it takes half damage and accuracy from the puma upgun. There is the pinned modifier that kicks in 10 seconds later - it's to make sure people don't keep a pinned unit there for 20 hours, not taking any damage while other stuff flanks.
Yet, the 2x Rec. Acc and 1.5x Damage modifier mean you still have a net gain in resistance to enemy fire.

This is why you don't look at CoH stats for anything EiRR - get yourself Corsix.

Another thing that's visible in your video, and that being pinned generally causes - the tommies spread out. When a unit is suppressed, it automatically scatters around : it's probably to give a sense of realism to the game. Now, I think it's pretty logical to assume splash damage weapons have less likelihood to kill two men in one shot if the men are spread out, no?

im telling the exact opposite: allies blob shit and win, needs change

Axis blob shit and win as well - blobs have always been effective, but only to a certain extent. You can still beat them with either a bigger and more bad-ass blob, with crowd-control/splash damage weaponry or through superior micro.

stugs without a turret are not really effective at chasing these things down, so the counter will be a 260 fuel p4 to a 50 fu lv?

Dunno what kind of nerfed stugs you been using - mine generally keep the big bad stag away. I guess not expecting to chase down a faster unit with a slower one helps.

Have you tried a pak/shrek(or faust) combination? Those generally do pretty well versus light vehicles.

t17 will most likely penetrate puma from the back and sometimes at the front. get 2 t17s and you kill a puma with ease.
dmg puma does vs these things is just a joke.

Two light vehicles that cost more both popcap and resources beating a single enemy light vehicle? How delightfully absurd!

50mms have a hard time hitting stags, and once the stag gets close it is game over.

A long ranged AT unit beaten at short range by a light assault vehicle? Lies!
May I suggest reversing, or layering out your AT halftracks?

pumas might snipe some inf, but they dont get near the effectiveness as the t17, and the stag also supresses.

Both the stag and the T17 cost more, and are more suited for the role. Also - may I suggest using the upgun puma versus Tank Destroyers, then trying to get the same effectiveness out of the T17/stag? Different units - different things they're good at.

watch the replay, puma should be faster(cohstats) but it isnt and it fails at hitting when both are moving.

Yet again - never ever in your life use CoHstats again. Just DON'T DO IT!
I think the whole 0.5 moving accuracy modifier the puma gun has might have something to do with it. Try stopping when firing?

[NightRain]

Upgun Puma used right

http://www.filefront.com/16512379/upgunpumausedright.rar

It is a harsher that comes from unexpected directions and works as a backstabber when the target is agroed to shoot another medium/heavy vehicle

[Tymathee]

y dont we just agree leo never knows what he talks about and bases his arguments on fail tactics and emotion?q

[Demon767]

y dont we just agree leo never knows what he talks about and bases his arguments on fail tactics and emotion?q

+1

[LeoPhone]

ok, i checked puma vs inf fight ingame. this is the result:

when puma is stationary it will 1 hit guys, so riflesquad would be dead in 6 shots if puma doesnt miss. doesnt really matter if the inf is moving.

however, is puma itself is moving it gets impossible for the puma to hit anything.
out of the 10 shots 1 or 2 hit.


so stationary puma is pretty good vs inf, meh vs lvs and meh vs tanks.

that makes it a pretty good unit, the fail of this thread lies within me believing the 50mm puma would be a LV killer. since the normal puma is already AI.

i guess its time to find another counter for LVs. i try a few volks mines...