M18 cloaking

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[lionel23]

Not really, after it fires you need to click the Ambush button to mobilize the unit, then you have to give a move order and it has to accelerate slowly to get away, while at that point it is already being ganked by the axis armor unless its like an IST or some crappy tank like that.

Now I can't pull COH Stats on that, but isn't the M18 hellcat overall slower and less maneuverable compared to the M10?

[deathsheads]

Maximum speed is 6 instead of 6.8, as a rule of thumb 1 is the difference between KT and Tiger.  Acceleration is noticeably slower as well.

Cloak has a recharge time of ten seconds, not sure if that means 10 or 20secs though and is a *5 multiplier for penetration which results in against panther frontal armor of standard pen of.4*.4 for panther armor and *5 for cloak resulting in a chance of 80% penetration when firing at maximum range of 45 in the long category.

Hellcat has M10 modifier for Wher tanks of dmg*1.25 as well.  When combined with the cloak bonus damage*2 we would get the normal damage of 112.5*2*1.25 of 281.25 of the panthers total health of 742 or a percentage of 37/38% which means three successful shots would kill a panther minus 5%. 

Stats were taking from COH-Stats and used M18 and Wehrmacht Panther with no skirts modifiers although panther with skirts still has same penetration values for the M18 of a .4 modifier.
 

[LeoPhone]

seems pretty accuracte deathsheads.

i have once fought a hellcat with my panther.
1: i see m18 and charge it
2: m18 cloaks and shoots
3: panther goes WTF coz of m18 just cloaked, idk what he did but no dmg done to m18(maybe panther just shot when m18 cloaked, so missfired)
4: m18 shoots again and penetrates panther at long range(16% chanse)
5: m18 backs off and my panther has lost over 50% hp with no dmg done to hellcat.

[Tymathee]

I've never seen that happen. I usually rape m-18's but at the same time, i usually just pop 'em with paks n schrecks, even though they have the penetration of a bazooka, and no armor, I dont want the dice being rolled against me.

[deathsheads]

I have only played a few games here however in those games my M18 has NEVER failed to earn its cost back, neither has my M10, their power is excellent in their respective categories to begin with, combine this with the modified repair system implemented in EIR and those shots that kicked the crap out of your unit hurt even more, because now you are almost forced to repair the damage or face being more easily killed by a previously minor threat that now has a far greater chance of winning due to your lack of power.  This power has often forced my opponents to withdraw to repair or pull of, allowing me a far greater advantage in the near immediate future battles which will more than likely only go to further the need for a push unit such as a tank yet with 1 m18 and 157 there is almost nothing that can be done to beat it in a cost effecient manner.  Only time it has outright failed me was against two squads of double shreked stormtroopers, however suppressive fire and and mg to further pin them resulted in their subsequent destruction and as such any advantage they gained in killing the AT weapons was nullified by the loss of their own. 

The problem is cloak is SO powerful it causes too much damage instantly resulting in either a charge to kill it, right into another AT unit, or a withdraw to repair or pull off, or sit in the backfield for a bit, regardless of the outcome I won the engagement, no questioning it.  Offensive usage of the unit only goes further to confound the problem. 

Lastly as to why the Best allied players use M10s, perhaps it is because they want a stand-alone unit.  One capable of killing a tank on its own, killing it fast, and killing it quick, would that sound more appealing than a unit that requires another piece of AT in support but with that can kill any tank under a Tiger quickly.

[gamesguy2]

Maximum speed is 6 instead of 6.8, as a rule of thumb 1 is the difference between KT and Tiger.  Acceleration is noticeably slower as well.

Cloak has a recharge time of ten seconds, not sure if that means 10 or 20secs though and is a *5 multiplier for penetration which results in against panther frontal armor of standard pen of.4*.4 for panther armor and *5 for cloak resulting in a chance of 80% penetration when firing at maximum range of 45 in the long category.

Hellcat has M10 modifier for Wher tanks of dmg*1.25 as well.  When combined with the cloak bonus damage*2 we would get the normal damage of 112.5*2*1.25 of 281.25 of the panthers total health of 742 or a percentage of 37/38% which means three successful shots would kill a panther minus 5%.  

Stats were taking from COH-Stats and used M18 and Wehrmacht Panther with no skirts modifiers although panther with skirts still has same penetration values for the M18 of a .4 modifier.
 

And this is why your entire analysis is completely wrong.

M18 cloak in EIR only gives 2x penetration and 1.5x damage.  Against a panther at long range it has default 0.16 penetration, which increases to 0.32 penetration, if it penetrates it deals 211 damage.

Average damage from a cloaked hellcat shot vs a panther at long range is only 96.2.  Average damage from a regular M10 shot vs panther at long range is 65ish.  After the cloaked shot, the M10 will always do the same damage, where as the hellcat's average damage per shot drops about 35.

30 more damage on the first shot is not worth losing 35 damage on every subsequent shot.   Hellcats are good at skirmishes where both sides are too scared to do anything and just take potshots at each other, but the M10 is far superior in all other situations.  The only time I would take a hellcat over a M10 is if I'm facing only P4s and PE light vehicles.

[Unkn0wn]

You should clarify that gamesguy :p

[Mysthalin]

There's nothing much to clarify unknown - CoHStats fails. End of story. .

[LeoPhone]

Maximum speed is 6 instead of 6.8, as a rule of thumb 1 is the difference between KT and Tiger.  Acceleration is noticeably slower as well.

Cloak has a recharge time of ten seconds, not sure if that means 10 or 20secs though and is a *5 multiplier for penetration which results in against panther frontal armor of standard pen of.4*.4 for panther armor and *5 for cloak resulting in a chance of 80% penetration when firing at maximum range of 45 in the long category.

Hellcat has M10 modifier for Wher tanks of dmg*1.25 as well.  When combined with the cloak bonus damage*2 we would get the normal damage of 112.5*2*1.25 of 281.25 of the panthers total health of 742 or a percentage of 37/38% which means three successful shots would kill a panther minus 5%.  

Stats were taking from COH-Stats and used M18 and Wehrmacht Panther with no skirts modifiers although panther with skirts still has same penetration values for the M18 of a .4 modifier.
 

And this is why your entire analysis is completely wrong.

M18 cloak in EIR only gives 2x penetration and 1.5x damage.  Against a panther at long range it has default 0.16 penetration, which increases to 0.32 penetration, if it penetrates it deals 211 damage.

Average damage from a cloaked hellcat shot vs a panther at long range is only 96.2.  Average damage from a regular M10 shot vs panther at long range is 65ish.  After the cloaked shot, the M10 will always do the same damage, where as the hellcat's average damage per shot drops about 35.

30 more damage on the first shot is not worth losing 35 damage on every subsequent shot.   Hellcats are good at skirmishes where both sides are too scared to do anything and just take potshots at each other, but the M10 is far superior in all other situations.  The only time I would take a hellcat over a M10 is if I'm facing only P4s and PE light vehicles.

what do u mean with average dmg?

[deathsheads]

Is there a massive total change-list that could help me as a new player to fully understand the changes made to game-play somewhere lurking in these forums and I just plain don't see it.  If so any help in finding it would be most appreciated by myself and perhaps many other new players.  Also my experiences with them have always resulted in earning its cost back or by collaboration making its cost back.

By average damage do you mean odds of pen on a pass fail check or what?

[gamesguy2]

Exactly that.  Average damage dealt of a cloaked hellcat shooting a panther at 45 range, accounting for bounces, deflection damage, etc.  Not including misses.

[LeoPhone]

Is there a massive total change-list that could help me as a new player to fully understand the changes made to game-play somewhere lurking in these forums and I just plain don't see it.  If so any help in finding it would be most appreciated by myself and perhaps many other new players.  Also my experiences with them have always resulted in earning its cost back or by collaboration making its cost back.

By average damage do you mean odds of pen on a pass fail check or what?

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=14995.0

[CafeMilani]

i think there are also small, hidden changes. not sure tho

[Unkn0wn]

Is there a massive total change-list that could help me as a new player to fully understand the changes made to game-play somewhere lurking in these forums and I just plain don't see it. 

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=13548.0

Those only cover most of the changes we did from vCOH.
CoH-stats is not entirely up to date on the latest vCOH stats.