Motorbikes/Jeeps

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[Demonic Spoon]

Something needs to be done about them


they're dirt cheap. They probably should be. But they're IMPOSSIBLE to kill.

In vCOH, they were very expensive for what they were. They were almost another infantry squad. They helped track down snipers, and their use as recon was relatively limited. To help them survive late game, they got ridiculous bonuses to survivability in the form of received accuracy modifiers from anything other than small arms.

In EIR, they're over the top. Recon is much more important, and they nullify a VERY expensive unit (sniper). This wouldn't be so bad if they could be killed. The only thing fast enough to chase them down (vehicles) or with long enough range to pop them (AT guns) can never hit them, ever. I've only played a few games since I've been back, but not once have I seen anything other than small arms actually hit the damn things.

Fuck, one guy drove three motorbikes right up to my PIAT sappers. For about 20-30 seconds my piat sappers totally failed to hit them at all. My ally had to bring in a bunch of infantry to drive them off.


Proposed solution? Remove all those ridiculous modifiers. If a tank gets its sights on a motorbike or jeep, it should have a reasonable chance of hitting it. Getting in range of such weapons should be a Bad Idea™. Motorbikes/jeeps should then be used cautiously, and hidden around corners and skirting the edges of a force instead of sitting at the forefront. If tank guns one-shotting jeeps becomes too much of a problem, boost their health a bit - Their health was balanced for vCOH where they come out at a time where only small arms are in play.

[Demon767]

quite interesting suggestion. i like the idea of increasing the price and making them more crucial for survival. so if you lost your recon unit it will hurt, though you shouldnt since its a recon and should be out of harms way. gives a different perspective on the game using recon units eh.

i just dont support remocing modifers etc. ATG's and HHAT still utterly home in on motocycles/jeeps

though you must refrain on rageposting and being bias to change stuff to help you play better.. its a rule

Fuck, one guy drove three motorbikes right up to my PIAT sappers. For about 20-30 seconds my piat sappers totally failed to hit them at all. My ally had to bring in a bunch of infantry to drive them off.

Myst would be able to go on about how this is acceptable

[Grundwaffe]

Something needs to be done about them


they're dirt cheap. They probably should be. But they're IMPOSSIBLE to kill.

In vCOH, they were very expensive for what they were. They were almost another infantry squad. They helped track down snipers, and their use as recon was relatively limited. To help them survive late game, they got ridiculous bonuses to survivability in the form of received accuracy modifiers from anything other than small arms.

In EIR, they're over the top. Recon is much more important, and they nullify a VERY expensive unit (sniper). This wouldn't be so bad if they could be killed. The only thing fast enough to chase them down (vehicles) or with long enough range to pop them (AT guns) can never hit them, ever. I've only played a few games since I've been back, but not once have I seen anything other than small arms actually hit the damn things.

Fuck, one guy drove three motorbikes right up to my PIAT sappers. For about 20-30 seconds my piat sappers totally failed to hit them at all. My ally had to bring in a bunch of infantry to drive them off.


Proposed solution? Remove all those ridiculous modifiers. If a tank gets its sights on a motorbike or jeep, it should have a reasonable chance of hitting it. Getting in range of such weapons should be a Bad Idea™. Motorbikes/jeeps should then be used cautiously, and hidden around corners and skirting the edges of a force instead of sitting at the forefront. If tank guns one-shotting jeeps becomes too much of a problem, boost their health a bit - Their health was balanced for vCOH where they come out at a time where only small arms are in play.

It's okay, sniper always was the lamest unit there was.

[NightRain]

Jeep/Motorbike/Schwimwagen are the only counters to snipers. If they couldn't reach sniper when everything hit on them, snipers would dominate the field and only counter to sniper would be: Recon tommy and another Sniper.

It is fine as it is

[Demonic Spoon]

Jeep/Motorbike/Schwimwagen are the only counters to snipers. If they couldn't reach sniper when everything hit on them, snipers would dominate the field and only counter to sniper would be: Recon tommy and another Sniper.

It is fine as it is

Huh? So a massively expensive, fragile unit that can kill one infantryman at a time is only balanced when there's a spammable, low-pop, nigh-invisible unit with another important function that can just run up and gun it down with impunity?

i just dont support remocing modifers etc. ATG's and HHAT still utterly home in on motocycles/jeeps

Nope. Not in my experience, anyway

though you must refrain on rageposting and being bias to change stuff to help you play better.. its a rule

We won the game in question by a fair margin, the motorbikes didn't kill anytihng, they were just brought in for lolz. I brought it up because it illustrates my point perfectly. PIAT sappers shouldn't miss stationary motorbikes at point blank range.

[LeoPhone]

lol... piats are not made to kill fast vehicles.

use brens, atgs, stags, stuarts, cromwells. easy.

out of two atg shots one will probably hit the bike and kill it.

cromwell has 1/3 chanse to hit bike from medium range, 1/4 long range.

atg has only 0.75 accuracy vs bike. my guess was right, atg has 0.48 chanse to hit bike from long range, 0.675 medium range.


next time, check it out yourself before you make a noob balance topic:
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=14995.0

[panzerman]

unless it is moving lol

like it random directions i have had a bike that got missed 12 times lol just from doing cricles.

[LeoPhone]

ok, then it's 1 in 5 cromwell shots hit at medium range

and 1 in 4 atg shots at long range.


still a big chanse to get hit the 1st time, and when shot a second time the bike already have 50% chanse to die

[EliteGren]

Keep your sniper near a halftrack. When they throw in that retarded 5 bike blob at your sniper you get inside and they die to your supporting units. It requires alot of extra micro - but is well worth it.

[EscforrealityTLS]

they're dirt cheap. They probably should be. But they're IMPOSSIBLE to kill.

This I have issue with, I call bullshit. For starters a bike looses to a single un-upgraded rifle squad. What are you talking about? A Jeep, yeah a little but harder to kill, not "IMPOSSIBLE". 

What appears to be the problem here is that you want your sniper to run around dominating the battle filed unopposed. I disagree with this, snipers when microed well are extremely influential and very hard to counter when supported. Hence the cheap counters that are somewhat uniquely vulnerable to both AT and AI.

 

[Mysthalin]

Fuck, one guy drove three motorbikes right up to my PIAT sappers. For about 20-30 seconds my piat sappers totally failed to hit them at all. My ally had to bring in a bunch of infantry to drive them off.

If the bikes weren't moving, the PIATs would have definitely hit due to the way their scatter works and how much larger the bike hitbox is than the actual model. I do agree with the fact that if the bikes are being microed - your PIATs are pretty much fucked. Heck - it's one of my favourite micro things to pull off myself.

However, both bikes and jeeps get utterly shredded by small arms due to their low health and armour. The bike has a decent enough gun to at least dish out relatively OK damage - but not exactly pop efficient at 3 popcap. The jeep is just a joke when it comes to fighting infantry, though.

Also, keep in mind that jeeps/bikes deal less and less damage(due to reduced accuracy) the more and more men they are shooting at - unlike most other weapons in their game, which increase their accuracy as the number of targets grows.


In conclusion - I don't think there is really that much of a problem - bikes and jeeps can be annoying when microed, but they're hardly game-breaking.

[Demonic Spoon]

lol... piats are not made to kill fast vehicles.

They were STATIONARY.

next time, check it out yourself before you make a noob balance topic:

That's an incredibly low chance to hit, and that only applies if the bike isn't moving. If the bike is moving even very slowly that chance to hit goes down a lot.

still a big chanse to get hit the 1st time, and when shot a second time the bike already have 50% chanse to die

Okay? They have 60 sight range, are incredibly fast, and dirt cheap. Even if they DO die (and you have to sit them still for quite awhile for that to even happen) they haven't exactly lost much.

This I have issue with, I call bullshit. For starters a bike looses to a single un-upgraded rifle squad. What are you talking about? A Jeep, yeah a little but harder to kill, not "IMPOSSIBLE". 

Did you read beyond the second sentence? I specifically said small arms do fine against them. I even proposed a slight health increase to compensate for vulnerability to heavier weapons.

What appears to be the problem here is that you want your sniper to run around dominating the battle filed unopposed. I disagree with this, snipers when microed well are extremely influential and very hard to counter when supported. Hence the cheap counters that are somewhat uniquely vulnerable to both AT and AI.

I wonder if people think or research before making stupid assumptions. I have a British company. I don't even have a sniper.

If the bikes weren't moving, the PIATs would have definitely hit due to the way their scatter works and how much larger the bike hitbox is than the actual model. I do agree with the fact that if the bikes are being microed - your PIATs are pretty much fucked. Heck - it's one of my favourite micro things to pull off myself.

Well...They didn't. They pretty much all missed. About 20-25 seconds of PIAT fire failed to kill even one of three stationary motorcycles at pointblank range.

[sgMisten]

Sounds like someone got pissed at a once off situation. Jeeps/bikes are fine.

[105TigerHunters]

I would have agreed with the original post a day or so ago but after the game i hed earlyer were a M10 blew up two bikes one after the other (while the M10 was in motion) im not so sure its a big issue just unlucky and good micro on the axis half.

[Demonic Spoon]

Sounds like someone got pissed at a once off situation. Jeeps/bikes are fine.

Sounds like someone's trolling my thread with stupid one-liners.

I would have agreed with the original post a day or so ago but after the game i hed earlyer were a M10 blew up two bikes one after the other (while the M10 was in motion) im not so sure its a big issue just unlucky and good micro on the axis half.

Then you got very lucky, the bikes were totally stationary and/or the M10 lacks the modifiers against bikes that all other large weapons have.

[gamesguy2]

IMO, bike/Jeep dodge is just too random.  Sometimes one ATG kills two bikes from your bike blob before they even get to the sniper, sometimes one bike slips through 2 ATGs a zook squad and a sherman and kills the sniper.

I think the jeep/bike could use a hp increase in exchange for a dodge decrease to normal light vehicle levels.

[Tymathee]

To counter jeeps and bikes n stuff, put your sniper in a group of infantry, the incremental acc debuff that bikes have vs groups of infantry comes into place and they wont kill it as fast, put it in green cover as well. Also, if ur using at weapons to kill bikes, ur doing ti wrong, infantry weapons are much better

[LeoPhone]

IMO, bike/Jeep dodge is just too random.  Sometimes one ATG kills two bikes from your bike blob before they even get to the sniper, sometimes one bike slips through 2 ATGs a zook squad and a sherman and kills the sniper.

I think the jeep/bike could use a hp increase in exchange for a dodge decrease to normal light vehicle levels.

dont do that! thats the epicness of jeeps fun: the randomness!

rofling your car trough the enemy seeing all bullets miss is just epic.

3 jeeps being blowed up at once is also fun lol, but then  for the axis side

[LCII^Bun-Bun]

next time, check it out yourself before you make a noob balance topic:

That's an incredibly low chance to hit, and that only applies if the bike isn't moving. If the bike is moving even very slowly that chance to hit goes down a lot.

Actually, I think he included bike movement in there: it has normal accuracy tables when not moving I believe.

still a big chanse to get hit the 1st time, and when shot a second time the bike already have 50% chanse to die

Okay? They have 60 sight range, are incredibly fast, and dirt cheap. Even if they DO die (and you have to sit them still for quite awhile for that to even happen) they haven't exactly lost much.

60?! 60 sight? 40 my friend, still 40.

What appears to be the problem here is that you want your sniper to run around dominating the battle filed unopposed. I disagree with this, snipers when microed well are extremely influential and very hard to counter when supported. Hence the cheap counters that are somewhat uniquely vulnerable to both AT and AI.

I wonder if people think or research before making stupid assumptions. I have a British company. I don't even have a sniper.

And you can also not use jeeps and bikes, so what are you talking about then?

If the bikes weren't moving, the PIATs would have definitely hit due to the way their scatter works and how much larger the bike hitbox is than the actual model. I do agree with the fact that if the bikes are being microed - your PIATs are pretty much fucked. Heck - it's one of my favourite micro things to pull off myself.

Well...They didn't. They pretty much all missed. About 20-25 seconds of PIAT fire failed to kill even one of three stationary motorcycles at pointblank range.

That's just plain weird: Piats work like a grenade, they just go to the spot where they are aimed, with a small scatter but little to none. Epic vs standing still vehicles, unbelievably useless vs light vehicles.

[Mysthalin]

60?! 60 sight? 40 my friend, still 40.

55*

Well...They didn't. They pretty much all missed. About 20-25 seconds of PIAT fire failed to kill even one of three stationary motorcycles at pointblank range.

I can only tell you that you're bullshitting in my face, and I don't like it when people do that. A bike accidentally dodging one single volley - maybe, with a lot of luck, and only at long range.
20-25 seconds of fire at point blank? rofl.