Whatever happened to subtelty?

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[winisez]

It was inline with some of the more powerful doctrines of the time,omni, subversion, conviction, air superiority...well you get the point.

[gamesguy2]

I am of the opinion that there is only so many different stat buffs you can give before they start mirroring each other(especially with twice the doctrines).  Activated T4s are much more fun.

Old EIR was in no way subtle.  Raid assault, air superiority, heavy support, ferocity, DRR, tank reapers, cohesion, heat rounds/IB, omniscience, etc.  Even fatherland defense tree wasn't that subtle since it gave you all units vet 1 and +60% more xp gain, leading to super vetted companies extremely quickly, and old EIR vet was hilariously powerful.

[deadbolt]

no one mentioned OBM?

[sgMisten]

Old EIR just kept close to vCoH, simple themes (more damage, more health, more damage, more units, more artillery, more off-maps) and made them more "spammy".

EiR:R right now greatly reduces the insane impact of any 1 type of buff (see above) and adds some innovative new ones.

The only problem I can see with the new abilities is that they may become too unintuitive, but we're doing a good job of weeding those out. (Remember panzer fear - tank slowing? Terror officer slowing? )

[ImmanioEiR]

Just piping up with my support for the devs. I'm certainly enjoying current EiR. (I did enjoy old EiR as well, but you could certainly do some ridiculous things there...)

[Falcon333]

no one mentioned OBM?

OBM was so ridiculous.

[Sach]

Let me back pedal a bit. I am not suggesting old EIR is in any way better than new eir, the opposite in fact. What I am sying is that I am increasingly see doctrines and abilities which are silly and unsubtle.

There were fantasy docs in old EIR and I thank everyone for pointing them out. You are proving my point. The more fantastical and further from vanilla a doctrine went the more you all seem to hate it.

Examples of what I consider to be 'subtle' doctrines both passed and present (from what I can remember)
CARE: I am not saying what was balanced or fair but what was sensible and subtle

German Steel
Heat Rounds
Airbourne Elite (both new and old)
Ariel Brothers
British Grit
Hold the Line
Expert Engineers
Armour Piercing Rounds
Locked and Loaded

etc etc

Where as Fantasy abilities I consider to be ones which have no basis in CoH, are completely made up or have very specific unit changing consequences.

Take old tank reapers for example:

Was it balanced? Was it Fair? No. Was it Subtle/Sensible? Yes. You knew very quickly when TR inf players were on the field and you played more cautiously with your tanks. It did not change the way you dealt with AT guns.

Now an usublt/fantasy version of TR would be to have it do normal damage to tanks but every 180 seconds you can activate an ability whereby the 3rd man goes nuts with his pistol and can snipe 1 infantry man per shot.


I hope this clears up what I am getting at. Its not about fair or balanced, its about fantasy abilities.

[deadbolt]

I love OP bullshit, it what drives me to playin certain docs in eir.

[thaelmann]

i completely agree with sach's original post. imo doctrines should be as subtle as possible. as for the 'cool' stuff: cool people build innovative coys, rely on excellent micro and macro managment as well as a decent teamwork. all other defininitely have to l2p. click&kill doctrine gimmicks are nothing but grief to other players (on both sides btw). they are as elegant as a troll on pink high heels.

[Draken]

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

[Sach]

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

No one really whined because they were just airbourne. They were killed by all the things that kill airbourne. They had no magic powers or super special abilities and he forgoed stat boosts to get that many. This is my whole point.

[gamesguy2]

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

No one really whined because they were just airbourne. They were killed by all the things that kill airbourne. They had no magic powers or super special abilities and he forgoed stat boosts to get that many. This is my whole point.

Raid assault gave +50% damage and +50% health...

It gave new meaning to the term nuclear hand grenade.

[CommanderHolt]

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

No one really whined because they were just airbourne. They were killed by all the things that kill airbourne. They had no magic powers or super special abilities and he forgoed stat boosts to get that many. This is my whole point.

Raid assault gave +50% damage and +50% health...

For 60 seconds. But it was OP all the same I think.

[gamesguy2]

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

No one really whined because they were just airbourne. They were killed by all the things that kill airbourne. They had no magic powers or super special abilities and he forgoed stat boosts to get that many. This is my whole point.

Raid assault gave +50% damage and +50% health...

For 60 seconds. But it was OP all the same I think.

It was two minutes, plenty of time to rape everything you can catch and then call in a new batch.

God was raid assault OP.  I used to run triple MG starts with bunkers to try and stop raid assault.  ABs with it just rolled everything from tanks to KCH to MGs.  I mean the nades literally one shotted entire KCH squads, and the AB themselves are like a 6 men KCH squad, they can eat a P4 shot to the face and not lose even one guy.

[deadbolt]

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

No one really whined because they were just airbourne. They were killed by all the things that kill airbourne. They had no magic powers or super special abilities and he forgoed stat boosts to get that many. This is my whole point.

Raid assault gave +50% damage and +50% health...

For 60 seconds. But it was OP all the same I think.

It was two minutes, plenty of time to rape everything you can catch and then call in a new batch.

God was raid assault OP.  I used to run triple MG starts with bunkers to try and stop raid assault.  ABs with it just rolled everything from tanks to KCH to MGs.  I mean the nades literally one shotted entire KCH squads, and the AB themselves are like a 6 men KCH squad, they can eat a P4 shot to the face and not lose even one guy.

LOL.

[NightRain]

Why did you not try dual Ostwind starts? Or 20mm light Recon units? they'd rape

[Sach]

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

No one really whined because they were just airbourne. They were killed by all the things that kill airbourne. They had no magic powers or super special abilities and he forgoed stat boosts to get that many. This is my whole point.

Raid assault gave +50% damage and +50% health...

It gave new meaning to the term nuclear hand grenade.

I belive he is talking about an Ariel Brothers player. not Raid Assault. Raid Assault would fall much more closely in to the fantasy/silly bracket.

[salan]

I fail to see any "fantasy abilities" in our current doctrine build. Those were out when Salan got ousted.

LOL this is the funniest re-occuring shit I have ever heard. You do know we worked off of a dev template that was created by the whole dev team and controlled by EIRRMOD.  He even stated multiple times "YOU WILL FOLLOW THIS TEMPLATE EXACTLY"  as akranadas complained endlessly because his vision of things were different then what the template stated and would argue against.

The only fantasy thing I personally created was the Command hotchkiss and the very first terror officer which none of you saw.  The rest were completely team oriented and controlled by EIRRMOD.

you can blame me all you want, I'm an easy scapegoat but I'm going to speak the truth once in a while when I see it.

[salan]

And as far as abilities go, i learned that lesson myself, that's why when I made fall of france there were exactly 0 in the game.

now back to our original broadcast.. I'm really only here to enjoy a good game

Why everyone whines about spam (excpet 50mm), tbh I can't see, I'm curious why noone complained back in old eir when there were oversupplied companies with over 100 ab, aka unlimited but on side note he sucked with it.

the main thing with any type of army in life is it is made up of what we would CALL spam.  IE: Infantry, Cavalry, tank forces.... they all had similar or identical parts in them.  Crying about 'spam' in a war game is kinda redundant in and of itself isn't it?

[Computer991]

I support you SALAN COME BACK AS A DEV!!!