[WM] Def. Officer and Senior Officers

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[UndeathWrath]

Bringing this up again because I believe a few months ago when I posted the devs said they'll be looking into it.

Just a Few Thoughts

Defensive Officer
- Being a level 1 unlock, I believe the mortar barrage ability should be a separate upgrade for the Officer, so that low level companys can make use of him right away. His very high cost would mean sacrificing many other important weapons/upgrades for a lower level player.
- That being said, I think he should increase the staying power of infantry in the same sector as him similar to british officers. So that he isn't quite worthless (with which I mean very not cost effective) without the T3 senior officers.
- Also, I believe he should be able to pick up weaponry (panzerschrek, LMG's, etc) just like every other CO of the allied armys can

Senior Officers
- The original defensive sector aura to increase the staying power of infantry and support weapons could be augmented to also increase the offensive capabilities of infantry and support weapons in the sector with this T3.
- Or perhaps give some other kind of bonus/ability

The point I'm making is that the officer should not feel/be worthless/not-cost-effective without the T3. You should still be able to feel great about having him in your army even if you decide not to get the Senior Officers T3. Instead, the T3 should just make a good choice even better

[AmPM]

Does he not come with mortar barrage anymore? Cause you know, its devastating especially when spammed.

[UndeathWrath]

he does come with the mortar barrage

he costs 170manpower and 180munitions

spammed with a 360s cooldown? (or close to that)

[LeoPhone]

can american officer pick up weapons?

[AmPM]

Wait till you fight 4+ of them. They gun down infantry and destroy support, very annoying for 8 pop.

[UndeathWrath]

Wait till you fight 4+ of them. They gun down infantry and destroy support, very annoying for 8 pop.

what do?

[sheffer]

I think german officer is not battlefield officer by his spirit in vCoH, he is staff officer.

Defensive Officer
- Being a level 1 unlock, I believe the mortar barrage ability should be a separate upgrade for the Officer, so that low level companys can make use of him right away. His very high cost would mean sacrificing many other important weapons/upgrades for a lower level player.

good point

Defensive Officer
- That being said, I think he should increase the staying power of infantry in the same sector as him similar to british officers. So that he isn't quite worthless (with which I mean very not cost effective) without the T3 senior officers.
- Also, I believe he should be able to pick up weaponry (panzerschrek, LMG's, etc) just like every other CO of the allied armys can

He is not a battlefiled officer and he is not a british officers. I dont like that idea.

can american officer pick up weapons?

he can

[Tymathee]

Bringing this up again because I believe a few months ago when I posted the devs said they'll be looking into it.

Just a Few Thoughts

Defensive Officer
- Being a level 1 unlock, I believe the mortar barrage ability should be a separate upgrade for the Officer, so that low level companys can make use of him right away. His very high cost would mean sacrificing many other important weapons/upgrades for a lower level player.

- That being said, I think he should increase the staying power of infantry in the same sector as him similar to british officers. So that he isn't quite worthless (with which I mean very not cost effective) without the T3 senior officers.

- Also, I believe he should be able to pick up weaponry (panzerschrek, LMG's, etc) just like every other CO of the allied armys can

1st Pt - Captain + Foo = 150 160. and Foo can damage tanks, while mortar barrage can but not nearly as well.
2nd Pt - No, he's fine as is, he has a different type of ability than any other officer. He gives 25% dmg + acc, what more do u want. L2P officer, just cuz u dont want to micro clicking the supervise, doesn't mean that you should change how he's used.
3rd Pt - maybe, but he's not an allied CO is he? why does everyone want stuff to mirror? But maybe. 

Senior Officers
- The original defensive sector aura to increase the staying power of infantry and support weapons could be augmented to also increase the offensive capabilities of infantry and support weapons in the sector with this T3.
- Or perhaps give some other kind of bonus/ability

The point I'm making is that the officer should not feel/be worthless/not-cost-effective without the T3. You should still be able to feel great about having him in your army even if you decide not to get the Senior Officers T3. Instead, the T3 should just make a good choice even better

1st Pt - no sector auro ty. captain should be only one to have it, although it'd be nice, i hate mirror abilities. and he's a focused type of officer, only affecting units in a limited area, giving him a sector ability takes a lot away from what he's intended for.

just cu zyou feel he's worthless and non cost effective doesn't mean he's not, just dont use it if u suck with it, i have one and i've gotten 3 of them to vet 3 and they've all died tbh but they still work very well. either learn how to micro supervise or just quit playing with it.

[UndeathWrath]

Bringing this up again because I believe a few months ago when I posted the devs said they'll be looking into it.

Just a Few Thoughts

Defensive Officer
- Being a level 1 unlock, I believe the mortar barrage ability should be a separate upgrade for the Officer, so that low level companys can make use of him right away. His very high cost would mean sacrificing many other important weapons/upgrades for a lower level player.

- That being said, I think he should increase the staying power of infantry in the same sector as him similar to british officers. So that he isn't quite worthless (with which I mean very not cost effective) without the T3 senior officers.

- Also, I believe he should be able to pick up weaponry (panzerschrek, LMG's, etc) just like every other CO of the allied armys can

1st Pt - Captain + Foo = 150 160. and Foo can damage tanks, while mortar barrage can but not nearly as well.
2nd Pt - No, he's fine as is, he has a different type of ability than any other officer. He gives 25% dmg + acc, what more do u want. L2P officer, just cuz u dont want to micro clicking the supervise, doesn't mean that you should change how he's used.
3rd Pt - maybe, but he's not an allied CO is he? why does everyone want stuff to mirror? But maybe. 

Senior Officers
- The original defensive sector aura to increase the staying power of infantry and support weapons could be augmented to also increase the offensive capabilities of infantry and support weapons in the sector with this T3.
- Or perhaps give some other kind of bonus/ability

The point I'm making is that the officer should not feel/be worthless/not-cost-effective without the T3. You should still be able to feel great about having him in your army even if you decide not to get the Senior Officers T3. Instead, the T3 should just make a good choice even better

1st Pt - no sector auro ty. captain should be only one to have it, although it'd be nice, i hate mirror abilities. and he's a focused type of officer, only affecting units in a limited area, giving him a sector ability takes a lot away from what he's intended for.

just cu zyou feel he's worthless and non cost effective doesn't mean he's not, just dont use it if u suck with it, i have one and i've gotten 3 of them to vet 3 and they've all died tbh but they still work very well. either learn how to micro supervise or just quit playing with it.

Just because I'm offering some suggestions as to modifying the defensive officer doesn't mean I do not know how to use him or , according to you, I should "quit using him." I just think he falls short in comparison of the other officers and doesn't quite reach the level of cost effectiveness they do.

Also, with him being a Defensive Officer, I think he should have more of a defensive impact rather than increasing a single unit's dmg and accuracy.

[lionel23]

I agree with Under on this, I'm a huge fan of defensive and his abilities don't just fall in line with how the company is played.  He's great for arty but he should impart better 'defensive' bonuses to units near him and maybe make Senior Officers make it a sector wide buff.  He really should fall in line with something like how the British Captain is 'defensively' helping his men while a LT is more an offensive person, or at least make him have an aura similar to the US Officer affecting different stats.

Also, I am strongly in favor of not requiring his expensive MU cost and making that a seperate ability/upgrade.  Considering how shreks are grossly expensive, and the defensive focus is more on shreks than any other weapons (terror being the LMG experts) and they lack a unique infantry other than the 88mm, there really needs to be an option to have more officers for passive buffing OR a few officers with arty.

[ImmanioEiR]

Well, he's a defensive officer in the sense that his supervise is best suited to stationary units, like support weapons; Mortars, nebels, PaKs, MGs, LMG/schreck grens defending etc. are the types of units he's best at boosting. (Can he supervise PaKs these days? Haven't played on my defensive company in a while, and I seem to remember he was unable to at one point.) I've certainly never felt that the officer was worthless without the area supervise. I can see the point of being buyable without the mortar barrage, but then pool cost would be the only deterrent to spamming them. 3-4 of these on at the same time would be an utterly evil anti-inf group at 6-8 pop. The luger can be truly nasty, and they're pretty damn survivable.

[Tymathee]

like immanio said, he's a defensive officer because he's best used on things that are sitting still. When it moves out of his radius, he has to move to it. Now, a sector bonus would be great, but it'd just make u a huge arty target. The point of the defensive doctrine is to be able to crush your foe if he so dares come near you, but you're not so good on the attack.

like the Stuka, it's not a defensive weapon but it's a defensive unlock. What about the 88 arty barrage, not a 'defensive' ability.

the way u play with a defensive company is so different from most other companies, al ot of people think they're weak but what u do is set up a defense and u barrage and when they come after your artillery, you have something waiting for them. I once had 2 hmgs, an 88 a stuka, a nebel and 2 2x schrecks and an office just lock down the middle of France because he couldn't get anywhere near me and the stuka and nebel would slow down any assault ditto the officer. Now, luckily, he expended his arty early and we got it so it was easy but thats how u play with a defensive company.

[UndeathWrath]

Well, he's a defensive officer in the sense that his supervise is best suited to stationary units, like support weapons; Mortars, nebels, PaKs, MGs, LMG/schreck grens defending etc.

Yes but the fact is that he is a Defensive Officer, not a squad leader. Squad leaders direct/supervise their respective squad into performing at their best. The officer shouldn't be able to supervise only one target at a time, he is an Officer, he is the one in command of combining and coordinating all the efforts of that detachment of that company (since entire real company's are huge and are commanded by generals). Sticking him with one squad/one support team is making him the leader of that squad/support team which is not his role, and that usually means making him very vulnerable to getting killed, which is not what officers did (coherent ones anyhow).
Point is, he is an Officer, and not a Squad Leader

Now, a sector bonus would be great, but it'd just make u a huge arty target.

No, sectors are usually huge. You know what makes him and the rest of your men a huge arty target? The T3 Senior Officer's 10m passive aura he provides so that you have to completely blob your forces to make any use of it.

like the Stuka, it's not a defensive weapon but it's a defensive unlock. What about the 88 arty barrage, not a 'defensive' ability.

The reason defensive company's get more artillery than say a blitzkrieg company is because defensive company's need to always have counter-artillery at the ready to destroy the enemy's artillery. This is because defensive company's are fortified into emplacements that are easy to target for enemy artillery commander's.
Blitzkrieg company's are always on the move, which makes them largely less prone to artillery fire, therefore they have less need for artillery support (although it is nice to have it lended to them by a defensive player).

The Flak 88's arty barrage is actually very defensive. It doesn't have very high range for an artillery piece (only the range of the Flak 88's regular attack), it is meant to give the flak 88 a chance to defend itself from hostile artillery with it's own counter-artillery ability (since once the flak 88 is constructed, it is stuck in that position for the rest of the game). It can also hit big blobs of enemy attacking infantry, resulting in massive kills.

[brn4meplz]

(since entire real company's are huge and are commanded by generals).

Wrong Companies are typically lead by Majors, Regiments(in the commonwealth sense) by L.Col's a General leads a Brigade and above

...very vulnerable to getting killed, which is not what officers did (coherent ones anyhow).

German Officers were notorious for being within 5km of the front line(which is an insanely short distance given mechanized units) Stop thinking of the Defensive Officer as the leader of a company but rather as a Lt. or a Captain who would normally be in charge of something like a Platoon or a base of fire

Point is, he is an Officer, and not a Squad Leader

This part is correct. CoH compresses units a Gren squad is half the size it should be(roughly) so a Def. Officer leading 3-4 Gren squads is a more direct translation of his command influence.

[AmPM]

A real company is between 100 and 250ish people, lead by a 1st LT or more commonly a Captain.

Platoons are lead by a Sgt or 2nd LT.

Majors and Lt Col. run battalions, and it goes up from there.

The Defensive Officer is more than likely a Lt equivalent rank.

[UndeathWrath]

(since entire real company's are huge and are commanded by generals).

Wrong Companies are typically lead by Majors, Regiments(in the commonwealth sense) by L.Col's a General leads a Brigade and above

Ok thank you for that history lecture. I was just making a rough comparison.

...very vulnerable to getting killed, which is not what officers did (coherent ones anyhow).

German Officers were notorious for being within 5km of the front line(which is an insanely short distance given mechanized units) Stop thinking of the Defensive Officer as the leader of a company but rather as a Lt. or a Captain who would normally be in charge of something like a Platoon or a base of fire

Yeah 5k from the front line. Not at the front line mixed in with 1 grenadier squad

Point is, he is an Officer, and not a Squad Leader

This part is correct. CoH compresses units a Gren squad is half the size it should be(roughly) so a Def. Officer leading 3-4 Gren squads is a more direct translation of his command influence.

Well that is exactly my point. Several squads should be affected, not just 1.

[ImmanioEiR]

Honestly, you're now arguing that "He's called an officer, so he should affect more squads"? Would you be happier if they called him a "Feldwebel" or "Fähnrich" or some such? Seriously, arguing from semantics of (generic) title is even a step down from regular arguing from realism in my opinion. They could call him Susan for all I care. Let me emphasize the important word of my previous sentence:

Well, he's a defensive officer in the sense that his supervise is best suited to stationary units, like support weapons;

You're arguing that he's not really a defensive officer because he doesn't give survivability bonuses, I'm arguing that he is because he's well suited to boost stationary (defending) units, providing good synergy in a defensive company. The defensive officer was the first officer introduced in EiR (I'm not quite clear on the details, but I think he existed in EiR but wasn't doctrine restricted, and got doctrine restricted in EiR:R, thus at the same time Brit officers were implemented?). He's currently unique, and pretty nicely balanced in my opinion. Not everyone likes the way he plays, perhaps, but he's definitely useful for those who do. You want him to work in a completely different way, by dropping his uniqueness and mirroring him more closely to Brit officers, and I really don't see the need for this.

As I stated previously, I can see the point of making the offmap an upgrade, but I'd be a bit wary about it, because it might make him too spammable. It might be that the 9 pool cost is enough to prevent it. Still, I think it's safe to say it's part of his design that you don't have more than maybe 3 at most in a company, and no more than 1(-2) on at the same time.

Making him able to pick up dropped weapons probably wouldn't be too bad either.

[Mysthalin]

A very, very simple reason as to why the officer is NOT getting seperated from his offmap.

6 officer luger deathsquad with no offmaps, just insta-criting any infantry in sight. I know I'd do it - wouldn't you?

[sheffer]

Btw, why we have global cooldown on US officer smoke and we cant spam them, but defensive officer with awesome mortar barrage has individual cooldown?

[Mysthalin]

US officer - 60 mu(at the time of the global recharge implementation - 40mu)
WM officer - 160 mu.

Also - US officer smoke spam allowed you to pretty much enjoy permanent immunity to all enemy weapons except flamethrowers and artilery. WM mortar off-map can be dodged very easily and does not help you against tanks and vehicles.