Sherman Upgun...

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[lionel23]

I have no problems with BAR infantry fighting my infantry, its called garrison.  So I've negated the riflemen and my shreks will own the sherman WITH my p4.

Sherman upgun doesn't need a nerf unless we need to nerf P4 skirts and either make them both equally sucky or raise them both to the same price.

[Computer991]

P4 Needs a price decrease,in most cases it's pretty useless...even with heat rounds i see a P4 and it's not as scary as it use to be ;p On the other hand when i see a sherman i shit in fear....but you know that's just my biased opinion.

This simply is not true.  I just had a game this morning where elite gren takes out an upgunned sherman with a single squad of dual shreks.

Whoever was micro-ing that Sherman has a serious case of L2P

[Spartan_Marine88]

Sherman upgun does need a nerf.

Also, any wehr company can have a building.. bunkers or (if defensive) trenches, which I use to great effect against Armor/vehicle based companies.. and you have clown cars for PE.  And to also add something else to the 'well what do you do when you have no building' around, keep the infantry supported and don't run alone.  A single shrek and P4 are more than a match for an upgun sherman.

Single shrek + P4 = 17 pop.
Sherman upgun = 12 pop

Riflesquad /w bar + sherman upgun = 17 pop
Riflesquad /w bar + sherman upgun > single shrek + P4 in most engagements of people of equal skill

Unless of course you do the smart thing and take out the bar squad with your p4, while keep the shreks moving to close with the sherman, as the sherman moves it will auto target the p4 keeping the shreks safe. P4 wipes out rifles has 1/4 - 1/2 health left 2 v1 the sherman. And this being a team game, ask team members to bring up at to even the odds

[lionel23]

Exactly Spartan.

@Computer - I dunno man, I'm personally scared of P4s due to their uncanny accuracy against infantry.  Elite infantry get sniped all to hell by those suckers and - unlike ostwinds - have skirts to negate handheld bazookas, RRs though that rapes every tank we know.  Now with expendable infantry like rifles, it doesn't matter to lose the whole squad, got more of those, but a P4 to a vet whore army is a beast.

[Computer991]

Theory crafting is bad guys,remember that...especially you spartan ;p

[Jazzhead]

Exactly Spartan.

@Computer - I dunno man, I'm personally scared of P4s due to their uncanny accuracy against infantry.  Elite infantry get sniped all to hell by those suckers and - unlike ostwinds - have skirts to negate handheld bazookas, RRs though that rapes every tank we know.  Now with expendable infantry like rifles, it doesn't matter to lose the whole squad, got more of those, but a P4 to a vet whore army is a beast.

I feel that the p4 suffers from being the "jack of all trades", but it doesn't dominate in one field. The stug is even better than the p4 vs handheld AT and vs shermans. The p4 is so much more expensive but really adds nothing except a turret..

[Uunderfire]

Exactly Spartan.

@Computer - I dunno man, I'm personally scared of P4s due to their uncanny accuracy against infantry.  Elite infantry get sniped all to hell by those suckers and - unlike ostwinds - have skirts to negate handheld bazookas, RRs though that rapes every tank we know.  Now with expendable infantry like rifles, it doesn't matter to lose the whole squad, got more of those, but a P4 to a vet whore army is a beast.

I feel that the p4 suffers from being the "jack of all trades", but it doesn't dominate in one field. The stug is even better than the p4 vs handheld AT and vs shermans. The p4 is so much more expensive but really adds nothing except a turret..

You need to be very good in micro to fight tanks like wolverine with stug. With Pz4 it's a bit easier.

[SX23]

Damn it...
I'm gone for about 2-3 hours and you guys start making this a "Learn to play" thread. FFS! Shut up two minutes and actually read what start it first. The sherman, right now, is equally effective against infantry and his counterpart medium tank, wich means the p4. It even BEATS the p4 in a 1v1, and that, quite easily.

For now, it's way too versatile and good for the 60muni. Let's make a quick comparaison: A p4, for 60 muni got side skirts which increase it's total health. In a 1v1 battle, the sherman still wins. And it still EASILY wins a 1v1 with a shreck squad. As I said in the beginning of the post, the problem is the versatility. It should be one or the other, not BOTH!

[Mysthalin]

Just like P4 skirts recieve more damage from tanks for the less recieved damage they get from hand-held AT, right?
Oh wait..

Upgun makes you better against tanks than before, Skirts improve you against infantry than you were before. Identical units, identical upgrade costs - identical increments in power.

[SX23]

Just like P4 skirts recieve more damage from tanks for the less recieved damage they get from hand-held AT, right?
Oh wait..

Upgun makes you better against tanks than before, Skirts improve you against infantry than you were before. Identical units, identical upgrade costs - identical increments in power.

" Just like P4 skirts recieve more damage from tanks for the less recieved damage they get from hand-held AT, right? "

The P4 then have a weakness for a slightly better equipment.
But then again, the sherman can kill infantry aswell with the upgun. It doesn't decrease the overall sherman performance, while skirts do. Having an upgun effective against tank (wich is the case) and infantry is too versatile for 60muni. You should either augment the price or have the upgun have the same performance as a panther gun against infantry. (just an example, it can be done with any other tank wich role isn't to kill infantry).

[Mysthalin]

Yet again - the P4 doesn't lose ANYTHING when it buys skirts - why should the Sherman lose anything when it buys the upgun? I fail to see the logic behind your argumentation.

[SX23]

Yet again - the P4 doesn't lose ANYTHING when it buys skirts - why should the Sherman lose anything when it buys the upgun? I fail to see the logic behind your argumentation.

I'm just quoting you: Just like P4 skirts recieve more damage from tanks for the less recieved damage they get from hand-held AT, right?


Well well well, isn't that a loss?

The upgun add versatility to the sherman in the sense where he can easily take infantry AND tanks, aswell as his axis counterpart: the p4, and that quite easily. As I said numerous times, it should be one or the other, like upgun: you can easily take on a p4. Normal gun: you can take on infantry.

[Hasek10]

I feel like the upgunned Sherman is powerful but not OP. Yes, it can take on a non-doctrine buffed P4 and win 1v1, but the P4 is still an excellent infantry rape-vehicle, and can ride to victory over the upgunned Sherman with either support or some doctrine buffs from Blitzkrieg.

The problem I think lies more with the fact that Shermans are easier to fit into a company, while P4 pricing still currently reflects the days when HEAT Rounds and OP Barrels turned P4 spam into a ridiculous and nearly unbeatable strategy.

I think a small fuel decrease on Panzer IVs to reflect the new doctrinal meta-game would be a better idea. As it is I would rather use Stugs, which are both cheaper and can fulfill the same role of infantry containment with enough munitions invested in them.

[Spartan_Marine88]

.
But then again, the sherman can kill infantry aswell with the upgun. It doesn't decrease the overall sherman performance, while skirts do.

Wait What? how do skirts decrease the p4's performance?

[SX23]

.
But then again, the sherman can kill infantry aswell with the upgun. It doesn't decrease the overall sherman performance, while skirts do.

Wait What? how do skirts decrease the p4's performance?

Read the post... I've wrote it 2 times already.
And even with skirts, P4 can't take on an upgun sherman or 2 rr squads.

[Mysthalin]

While "quoting" me you forget to notice the very sarcastic "Oh wait..."

P4s not only gain less recieved damage and pen from handheld AT with skirts, but also a 0.9 recieved damage modifier from tanks, as well.

Skirts don't reduce the P4s performance in any way - only improve it. Just like the upgun.

[MonthlyMayhem]

I don't think an upgun can take out 2 shrek squads to be honest. And two stormies squads with double shreks completely nuke the sherman.

[lionel23]

You're using shermans wrong, plus use combined arms when playing with P4s, I don't have any problem with them when I play my axis company.

And as Mys said (he noted sarcasm which you failed to see), skirts reduce all AT-infantry based weapons effectiveness against the P4 AND reduce incoming tank damage by 10%.  The upgun does no damage boost, has a reduced splash (thanks to one of the latest EIRR patches) and just removes the one second reload penalty, as it was one of the silliest penalties in the game for an upgrade to 'improve' your tank.

RR's are a hard counter to tanks, though I ran an airborne company that with NO BUFFs the RRs will bounce a lot off tanks, but once you start adding penetration buffs and stuff, those things rape tanks, just like an 88 rapes vehicles and tanks.  Bazookas are LV counters and skirts can save you big time against them, can't attest to piats though.

A vanilla P4 will beat a vanilla sherman any day, and it costs munitions to make the sherman good against other tanks, while a P4 with no munitions investment is already good against tanks and will singlehanded beat a 75mm sherman anyday.

[SX23]

You're using shermans wrong, plus use combined arms when playing with P4s, I don't have any problem with them when I play my axis company.

And as Mys said (he noted sarcasm which you failed to see), skirts reduce all AT-infantry based weapons effectiveness against the P4 AND reduce incoming tank damage by 10%.  The upgun does no damage boost, has a reduced splash (thanks to one of the latest EIRR patches) and just removes the one second reload penalty, as it was one of the silliest penalties in the game for an upgrade to 'improve' your tank.

RR's are a hard counter to tanks, though I ran an airborne company that with NO BUFFs the RRs will bounce a lot off tanks, but once you start adding penetration buffs and stuff, those things rape tanks, just like an 88 rapes vehicles and tanks.  Bazookas are LV counters and skirts can save you big time against them, can't attest to piats though.

A vanilla P4 will beat a vanilla sherman any day, and it costs munitions to make the sherman good against other tanks, while a P4 with no munitions investment is already good against tanks and will singlehanded beat a 75mm sherman anyday.

My point is that a sherman will beat a vanilla p4 with upgun and STILL beat axis at infantry.

[Jazzhead]

I don't think an upgun can take out 2 shrek squads to be honest. And two stormies squads with double shreks completely nuke the sherman.

I LOL'd. You're kinda stating the extremely obvious that 600 MP and 600 MU > 395 MP, 60 MU, 240 FU