Allies in General

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[DarkSoldierX]

Not so OP doctrine abilities/make axis doctrines useful. Less OP noob offmaps on BOTH sides. (IM STAIRING AT YOU STRAFING RUN!)

[SX23]

ok i will calm down now, can you suggest ways to balance allies?

I would say : Nerf the 57mm and its buff. (Having one doing 1/4 dmg to the health of the front armor panther is just lame)
Then: Reduce light vehicles effectivness/health, especially with brits. (Maybe have it pe like armor?)
Then: Reduce vPg cost. 255mp compared to 170mp for a riflesquad that beats it in versatility and most 1v1 fights in equal conditions.
Then : Remove immobilisation, destroyed engine from the game. (having a panther immobilised is much more frustrating than a sherman).
Then : Reduce Rr effectinveness.
Then : Remove team weapons packs from brits --vickers mmg, the at. (Why should brits have and not pe)?
Then : Augment Tiger effectivness.
Then : Nerf M10 (Removing crush would do)
Then, *personal* (Not a really an issue, but well) : augment hotchkiss stukas effectivness.
Btw I gtg, but I would have fun continuing this discussion later on.
On a sidenote, I just want you guys to actually admit that allied are WAY easier to play now, and that I don't want this to become an actual "balance vs balance" thread.

[gamesguy2]

Gameguys-- Ask cannonball, i don't think i still have the replay.

And still, I can easily have WAY betters allies stats (Almost 2:1) while being really bad at them than axis, on wich i'm, well, i'd say good and i can barely maintain a 1:1 ratio. Just to give an idea, in 0.06 i had 11:1 and now i can barely maintain 1:1.

The fact is still the same...
Allies are WAY easier to play at this moment.

The allies are OP in the terms that they are, look at leaderboard, WAY easier to play atm than axis.

You have 14 games with axis and only 6 games with allies.

[CommanderHolt]

1.Why Nerf the vanilla 57mm, it can't Camouflaged so it can be seen with a cursory glance with a Bike/Swimm.
2.The Stuart is already paper thin as it is already, I don't think it needs a nerf, Staghound... maybe.
3.vPGs Cost 215mp, British Infantry Sections are the ones at 255mp.
4.I imagine have a Churchill or Pershing with immobilization or damaged engine would be very frustrating too.
6.Would you like to see the return of British Infantry blobbing with massed PIATs as one of the only viable tactic again?

Nothing coming to be at the moment.

[Demon767]

thanks for being the bigger man SX23. i like where this discussion is going (not saying i agree i couldnt really care what happens) but its interesting to read peoples opinions

[Jazzhead]

Here's my 2 cents:
I have a lvl 9 terror acc (70:37), and a lvl 9 AB acc (44:15).

As an axis player these are my biggest problems with the game:
-ARTY. It is very rare to play a game in which my opponents don't field some form of arty. To counter this I never leave home w/o my 2 v1s. BUT they miss so fucking much   and even when i do happen to take out a howie, the allies field more and more. Then we have calliopes, the dumbest most annoying unit. If your units are caught in its fire they will die no matter what. Even if you attempt to move, the calli shots land so frequently that they mess up the unit's pathing causing them to pause and remain in danger. The extremely short cooldown on arty and the high number of arty pieces fielded means that at any given time in the battle you will be getting shelled. So you can kiss goodbye to any mortar or pak fielded while the enemy has arty on the field. And you might say, "l2play and move your support weapons when they fire!!". Yes so every time the allies fire arty (howies, 25lbers, priests, callis) i need to move every support weapon and troop or they will get instagibbed. OK sounds totally fair to me. Callis aren't even vulnerable like howies because they can move and w/ a gun, fight back. You either have to bum rush all the arty and take casualties or sit back and take more casualties.
P.S Players just love to sit back behind their line of atgs and just wait for their arty to cooldown so they can systematically annihilate every axis unit in sight.

-Light vehicles. With the shot dodge so high for units like the m8, shreks, and even tanks fail so much at taking these LIGHT vehicles down. All the while the m8 is shooting your pak crew while you scream at your tanks to hitting the fucking thing standing still. For their low cost they are practically invincible to supposedly strong forms of AT.

As an allied player:
-Elite inf with fireup. This mod is all about survivability, so your goal is to kill units while taking minimal damage or risk. No unit accomplishes this as well as AB. You can use them as hit and run AT until the cows come home and they will never die. There is no reliable way to stop AB from sprinting in, destroying all your vehicles/AT and running out safely.  The axis inf have no way to get out of bad situations, and in most cases just get pinned and then have to retreat. In vcoh it was the allies that had to worry about being suppressed, but in EIR the axis get screwed. When a vet0 BAR rifle can pin a vet3 gren squad and nullify an expensive investment with the click of a button, something is wrong. Playing as allies against even skilled axis is easy street. I'm no amazing player, but allies seem much easier to me.

@CommanderHolt Along the lines of immobilization, having your tiger or KT engine damaged by 1 sticky (usually b/c of bad pathing. We all know that a small bush is too much for a KT to handle rolling over) is even worse. When your engine is damaged, it's GG. LETS BRING BACK FAUSTS DOING ENGINE DAMAGE! Jk that was terrible, BUT it does seem like the allies have a lot of cheap counters to extremely expensive axis units...

[Spartan_Marine88]

ok i will calm down now, can you suggest ways to balance allies?

I would say : Nerf the 57mm and its buff. (Having one doing 1/4 dmg to the health of the front armor panther is just lame)
Don't charge tanks into ANTI TANK WEAPONS
Then: Reduce light vehicles effectivness/health, especially with brits. (Maybe have it pe like armor?)

Then: Reduce vPg cost. 255mp compared to 170mp for a riflesquad that beats it in versatility and most 1v1 fights in equal conditions.

Then : Remove immobilisation, destroyed engine from the game. (having a panther immobilised is much more frustrating than a sherman).
STOP trying to run over rifles with a slow tank

Then : Reduce Rr effectinveness.

Once again ANTI-TANK use infantry not a TANK
Then : Remove team weapons packs from brits --vickers mmg, the at. (Why should brits have and not pe)?

You have a MG in a HT, a 50 mm HT, and a MORTAR in a HT, why should brits have no moveable support
Then : Augment Tiger effectivness.

Learn to use it, possibly support it
Then : Nerf M10 (Removing crush would do)

2 50 mm ht's need i say more

Then, *personal* (Not a really an issue, but well) : augment hotchkiss stukas effectivness.
Btw I gtg, but I would have fun continuing this discussion later on.
On a sidenote, I just want you guys to actually admit that allied are WAY easier to play now, and that I don't want this to become an actual "balance vs balance" thread.

And in summary go play a couple games with Frax or any of the other PE players who can help you L2P, learn how to use the PE. You are super mobile the entire point of the company is to hit and move hit and move.

[Uglysori]

ok i will calm down now, can you suggest ways to balance allies?

I would say : Nerf the 57mm and its buff. (Having one doing 1/4 dmg to the health of the front armor panther is just lame)
Don't charge tanks into ANTI TANK WEAPONS
Then: Reduce light vehicles effectivness/health, especially with brits. (Maybe have it pe like armor?)

Then: Reduce vPg cost. 255mp compared to 170mp for a riflesquad that beats it in versatility and most 1v1 fights in equal conditions.

Then : Remove immobilisation, destroyed engine from the game. (having a panther immobilised is much more frustrating than a sherman).
STOP trying to run over rifles with a slow tank

Then : Reduce Rr effectinveness.

Once again ANTI-TANK use infantry not a TANK
Then : Remove team weapons packs from brits --vickers mmg, the at. (Why should brits have and not pe)?

You have a MG in a HT, a 50 mm HT, and a MORTAR in a HT, why should brits have no moveable support
Then : Augment Tiger effectivness.

Learn to use it, possibly support it
Then : Nerf M10 (Removing crush would do)

2 50 mm ht's need i say more

Then, *personal* (Not a really an issue, but well) : augment hotchkiss stukas effectivness.
Btw I gtg, but I would have fun continuing this discussion later on.
On a sidenote, I just want you guys to actually admit that allied are WAY easier to play now, and that I don't want this to become an actual "balance vs balance" thread.

And in summary go play a couple games with Frax or any of the other PE players who can help you L2P, learn how to use the PE. You are super mobile the entire point of the company is to hit and move hit and move.

Some quick pts though like Demon I am not sure if I care for or see a need for a change.  For myself, I'd agree it's easier to win with allies though I think that probably has more to do with the Axis player base than necessarily Allied abilities but I do think Allied play style does have an effect.

To Spartan:
STOP trying to run over rifles with a slow tank - I just think this is an almost non-sequitur to what SX23 was talking about.  Firstly what is the fastest tank out there on Axis side that has the ability to human crush?  Secondly the tank used for human crush on the Axis side is actually slower than the Panther, the Stug because of the powerslide affect.  Thirdly, the allied options for human crush are not only cheaper, M10s/Cromwells, but Axis have no stickies.  Not necessarily calling for a sticky change and I think SX23 was arguing more for the immobilization of expensive heavies due to mines.  I think he was part of the no immobilized Jadg outcry.  I just thought your point, Spartan, was random.

Once again ANTI-TANK use infantry not a TANK - I don't think SX23's point is about using tanks against RRs.  RRs excel at rushing in and sniping often weaker PE vehicles.  His point in reducing their effectiveness isn't that he is attacking the RRs with those said vehicles given that the only vehicles you can use really to attack RRs with PE is ISTs or armored cars.  That being said the solution to RRs for PE is usually better micro or infantry based solutions G43 slow.  But again I just thought that suggestion, Spartan, was sort of random.

And frankly, SX23 has played far more games with PE than Frax so I dunno how Frax's playstyle is that much better imo.

[Tymathee]

I do have to agree though, that crush on the m-10 and cromwells is just stupidly gay. I can't tell u how many times that someone has brought on an m-10 just to kill infantry, same with cromwells. Heck, i saw someone with a vet 3 cromwell and all he used it for was to crush infantry. The same is done with p4s, shermans, crocs, panthers etc but you dont bring those units out to run over infantry like i see cct's and m10's used and cuz they're cheap and low pop, you can bring it in and field other stuff around it.

I think Schrecks need to come down in price.
2 piats 120 (60 each)
2 zooks for rangers 80
1 zook rifle 60
2 rr's 160 (80 each)
1 Schreck 120 mu.

the fact is, if someone wants to field a lot of schrecks, they're hard pressed to because of money.

Also, i think being able to outfit your Grens with both an lmg and schreck would really help and just keep the 2x ones for terror and defensive but let all factions be able to buy one of each if they like, is only fair imo and would make grens more versitile.

PE infantry price does need to come down, it's just way too high imo gpt pz grens, they're the most expensive mainline infantry, tied with brits and who do u think wins 1 v 1, a tommy squad or pz gren?

light vehicles are fine now but i do think that the Sherman upgun needs to go up in price. You took away its reload penalty but didn't up the price, now all i see are upgun shermans and a p4 can't even tackle it without help. Or maybe even make it so if u buy skirts on a p4, it helps to nullify the upgun a bit with a lower penetration chance.

Howitzer price needs to be raised just a little, as does the vet requirement. It was that low before because you couldn't keep them alive in the old eir but you kept the xp gain the same so all you see now are vet 3 howitzers.

shorten the duration of BAr suppression, at the current rate, when you start it, you can pin, not just suppress at least 3-4 squads all at different angles.

oh and btw, change the Scorched earth barrage so it doesn't insta kill every british emplacement. the CCS, vickers pit, 17pdr, and 25 pdr all get one hit by it, not a single barrage but a single rocket, and the emplacement is done.

[Sharpshooter824]

I personally think BAR SF should be removed entirely with a price decrease, it's a significant DPS boost to the squad and having suppression on mainline infantry in EIRR's environment is just bad.

[CrazyWR]

You all fail to see the point don't you?
I'm incredibly bad as allies and I still have, and that quite easily, a 2:1 ratio on EVERY serious allied account.
As an example, me and cannonball won a game where not only i did incredibly bad, but we were a lvl 1 and 3 against a lvl 9 and 7.
 I mean, is it normal that you need to be REALLY good as axis to actually have a fair game?
Or is a mod where you need to be extremly good as axis to compensate the allies gameplay is considered as "balanced" nowadays?

you played with cannonball.  One of the best 3 or 4 players in the entire mod.  End of story.  Yes, allies have some broken t4's, but so do PE and Wehr.  They will eventually get fixed, if BobSmith ever decides to resume coding.  Until then, if Allies are so easy, go play them.  I personally feel balance right now is pretty good, although there are some tweaks needed still.  Far better than it used to be...

[NightRain]

It is all about Investments.

In my honest and pure opinnion I must say that Tigers generally sucks in EIRR environment. While they unarguable way can deal massive damage they still fall short. 2 Tigers are outrationed with 9 M10 Companies whether are they armor or not. (6 is quite enough too)
Don' forget the ATGs and hordes of recrew infantry.

King Tigers...they suck as well, too slow, that exact problem lays with the Tiger as well. Generally ALL HEAVY TANKS except Panther and Jagdpanther sucks from the axis side.

It is best to use cheap toys like Mysthalin does. Panther is awsome due to its speed.

Axis infantry is nice and fun to use but...sometimes they are annoying.


Now what I love as allies is: Artillery. RCA Coy can rape all! W00t

Fireflies, the best tank in the entire mod. Its range makes it PWNsauce <3
Sticky bombs, button and PIATs and cheap Bazookas <3 Who needs Elite inf if you have those. But I don' mind as Axis. Once you know what Allies like to spam the most (besides hordes of tanks) you have given the correct tools to use.

[SnoOp]

Who has a 9 m10 company =O.....I love my tigers....Id be nothing without them SO LEAVE EM ALONE.

[Computer991]

Bar suppression actually reduces squad accuracy doesn't increase DPS,I'm not 100% sure about this tho someone cite some proof for me!


Anywho,the only company i think that really poses a problem is AB,it needs nerfs here and there...but over all the mod is somewhat balanced...just for PE in my point of view you need to spam something i've never won with a balanced PE company,if you're not spamming 50mm's you're doing it wrong! Nah i'm kidding i hate 50mm spam....on my PE company i've gone 15W and 3L(ish_ i'm not sure too lazy to check but i use 20 Pgrens and tellermines combined with 2 marders and double clown car shreks....it works out OK great versus AB.

[CommanderHolt]

Bar Suppression increases the Suppression of all weapons in the squad, not just the BARs themselves. People pretty much hit the dirt instantly if they manage to get their hands on an LMG42. Of course it also decreases DPS, but pinning the enemy pretty much grants you victory in a firefight.

http://picly.us/coh/Ability_Suppression_Fire.html

I'm pretty sure the basics of the ability hasn't changed in EiR, maybe less suppression bonus maybe?

[Jazzhead]

Bar suppression actually reduces squad accuracy doesn't increase DPS,I'm not 100% sure about this tho someone cite some proof for me!


Anywho,the only company i think that really poses a problem is AB,it needs nerfs here and there...but over all the mod is somewhat balanced...just for PE in my point of view you need to spam something i've never won with a balanced PE company,if you're not spamming 50mm's you're doing it wrong! Nah i'm kidding i hate 50mm spam....on my PE company i've gone 15W and 3L(ish_ i'm not sure too lazy to check but i use 20 Pgrens and tellermines combined with 2 marders and double clown car shreks....it works out OK great versus AB.

The problem is the suppression itself and that it basically nullifies all axis inf. I mean if you severely outnumber the bar rifles then you can win, but still..

[Demon767]

You all fail to see the point don't you?
I'm incredibly bad as allies and I still have, and that quite easily, a 2:1 ratio on EVERY serious allied account.
As an example, me and cannonball won a game where not only i did incredibly bad, but we were a lvl 1 and 3 against a lvl 9 and 7.
 I mean, is it normal that you need to be REALLY good as axis to actually have a fair game?
Or is a mod where you need to be extremly good as axis to compensate the allies gameplay is considered as "balanced" nowadays?

you played with cannonball.  One of the best 3 or 4 players in the entire mod.  End of story.  Yes, allies have some broken t4's, but so do PE and Wehr.  They will eventually get fixed, if BobSmith ever decides to resume coding.  Until then, if Allies are so easy, go play them.  I personally feel balance right now is pretty good, although there are some tweaks needed still.  Far better than it used to be...

that doesnt leave much room in the mod ofr you than myst  hehe

[Hydro]

About m10 and crush-there is as I remember a value can_crush_humans that should be solution and I agree- m10 is tank destroyer not infantry smasher. But from other side, than any inf can block tanks.

Second thing I've noticed is that allies are better fitting into eir envinroment than axis- high mobility and cheap units make allies hard to beat, especially some of type combination. I suspect when luftwaffe doc with panzerknacker will be done, then most of allies armor player will go into amount than 2 pershings or even change doctrine to inf or airborne.

Third thing- about ab, I found out that armored car has 100% acc vs airborne and airborne rifleman, so...

[Jazzhead]

About m10 and crush-there is as I remember a value can_crush_humans that should be solution and I agree- m10 is tank destroyer not infantry smasher. But from other side, than any inf can block tanks.

Second thing I've noticed is that allies are better fitting into eir envinroment than axis- high mobility and cheap units make allies hard to beat, especially some of type combination. I suspect when luftwaffe doc with panzerknacker will be done, then most of allies armor player will go into amount than 2 pershings or even change doctrine to inf or airborne.

Third thing- about ab, I found out that armored car has 100% acc vs airborne and airborne rifleman, so...

Sure you can beat AB if you make an AC or puma spam coy, but it shouldn't take a gimmick to counter a unit when they could and should just be balanced.

[Demon767]

well anyways albatross, i hope that replay was able to clear somethings up.

on my opinion about which side is easier. i cant really tell, i feel allies are easier BUT there are so many factors that affect my opinion such as skills of player in each faction etc.  thats why i like to point out that if you can explain what is unbalanced about allies instead of opinons (like my example) than we can discuss and highlight any unbalanced units. as of yet. im not really convinced yet.