WW2 Has so many Plot Holes...

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[CubanLynx]

Trying to defend the Church nowadays is pointless; you could try to alienate faith from it though, which would make sense.

How is it pointless, I with a bit of time and research I could refute any logical argument you care to throw at me. You could always ignore it, but if you look at it from a neutral perspective......

You cannot alienate the faith from the Church, since the faith is founded on the Church by Jesus himself. Unless ofcourse you want to go in for a different religion

[Mysthalin]

Its fundamental because women since the beginning were never allowed to be priests

They also found it fairly fundamental to burn heretics from quite the early stages too. Just because it was like that for a long time doesn't make it fundamental at all.

its because they relalised men and women are different and have different roles to fufil.

So, you're saying that women - consolers and preachers by NATURE(due to their brains being far more receptive of emotions and thusly far better at both decyphering them and manipulating them) would be bad priests? Especially since faith is exactly about understanding and controling emotion - first and foremost. And that there being a social hierarchy in the old days would upset the religion? I was much under the impression that a priest is intended to give up his pursuits in the regular social world if he wants to truly become a man of god.

Having women priest would change the very nature of a key component in the religion.

How? Please quote the Dear Lord Christ where he said that women being priests would undermine his religion.

How is it pointless, I with a bit of time and research I could refute any logical argument you care to throw at me.

Up until now you've only refuted logic. If you could, please indeed post some actual arguments.

since the faith is founded on the Church by Jesus himself

I'm pretty certain Jesus didn't actually form a church. He just had a religion he preached and followers. He was also quite far away from Rome and, thusly Vatican. It's quite possible indeed that he never intended for there to BE a church, or a Pope. Wasn't he the one who said you can pray to God anywhere, for God is everywhere?

[AmPM]

Never mind that he died long before the church was founded.

[Mysthalin]

Oh yeah, that too. 300 years earlier or such, was it?

[Spartan_Marine88]

Its fundamental because women since the beginning were never allowed to be priests. Even when there were positions to be filled men were always chosen. This is not becuase the leaders were male chauvanist, they were in fact the opposite, its because they relalised men and women are different and have different roles to fufil.

i.e. Having women priest would change the very nature of a key component in the religion.

Actually, it was because the Greeks and Romans had women as priests and held a very high symbol of Society, the catholic base is just a power play to alienate all forms of the old religions and to snag the power vacuum left over after the collapse of the Roman Emperor.

Also the major problem with that form of thinking goes hand in hand with the "priest can get married" fact. How the hell is a man who were supposed to look up to actually lead by example when he can never truly comprehend the basis of a marriage.

Plus the fact that you are discriminated because you can't or won't pay the bill to go to church is just well wrong.

Also lets not forget the fact that one of the very first story in the bible Adam and Eve set women in such a bad light its just terrible

Lets also not forget that most of the solo pleasure myths (like blindness, hairy palms) was created by a man who watched little kids play with themselves for days on end.

You cannot alienate the faith from the Church, since the faith is founded on the Church by Jesus himself. Unless ofcourse you want to go in for a different religion

And thats not true, the original Bible copies were all burned by one of the Holy Roman Emperors, if god himself made the original bible it doesn't matter as every copy was hunted down and destroyed, those who tried to hide murdered (rumors that a few originals are still in hiding) and what you read today is the man made horror story designed to keep you inline.

i.e. Having women priest would change the very nature of a key component in the religion.

And as a Protestant with a female minister (BTW they can marry so actually know what they talk about) i know that this just isn't true


And last but not least remember, Jesus (not the character but the MAN that the bible based the God Son on)  was born Jewish and had different views

[CubanLynx]

Ok you might want to rename this thread now. When a man looks at a women what traditionally does he do? Is he renowned for listening to every single word that comes from her mouth?

Mary has always been considered the perfect human being. She would have to be since she brought God into the world. It would be ridiculous to claim that she was under satan spell for any moment. That would be like saying your mother slept with your worst enemy, would God really allow that? Even though she was perfect lesser beings were chosen to be the twelve. Even when there was a vacant postion due to Judas' suicide she was never chosen. Surely it would be common sense that if both men and women were allowed to be chosen, she would be the first. Yet she was not.

Women are more emotional and caring, which makes them perfect for being mothers. Priests are meant to be an alter christus, Christ was a man.

Faith's primary goal is the belief in God and our salvation not the repression of emotions, and in which case your argument that they would be better at controlling emotions is false. They are more emotional i.e. they find them harder to control. I've witnessed countless times when men and women have been through the same crap and the man stands there silent while the women bursts into tears or starts venting here frustration. It's just the flip side to her ability to love and care more.

Yes heretics were burned, in those days there were very few educated people, you could easily be lead astray by a charismatic leader. Under the principle of double effect it is better for one man to lose his life then for an enitre group of people to lose their eternal life.

My argument have not been illogical they have been based on historical fact. Before the reformation in the 1600's name me one legitimate women priest?

[Spartan_Marine88]

Cuban i have already explained it, 'mary' wasn't 'chosen' or maybe she was but the 'new' bible says she wasn't because by doing so would cast a throw back to the Old Religions were women were actually respected.

And please stop saying Faith, as what you are quoting is Catholicism which is one sect of the christian religion.

[AmPM]

Men and women are not any different in the level of emotion experienced, it's just one gender is socially pressured not to betray their emotions while the other is encouraged to.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Men and women are not any different in the level of emotion experienced, it's just one gender is socially pressured not to betray their emotions while the other is encouraged to.

The only differences scientifically proven, has been men have a slight increase in bone density, and are better at certain spatial sciences while women tend to be better at math and memory which as far as i can tell, say nothing about their family or religious related abilities

[CubanLynx]

Lads give me a chance to respond. The claim that was the Church was founded in the 300's by Constantine is a popular myth. There are records of Pope Clement, in AD96 iirc, who sent a letters to the Church in Corinth saying that he did have authority over them. This is a historically proven record. Cleary the Church did exist before the 300's

Priest do not get married becuase they are supposed to devote their life to the service of God and his people. A wife and kids would divide his attention.

We have manuscripts dating from Jewish times, and even the Jews nowadays use the same old testament we use. It is clear that  Bibles being burned is yet another myth.

You don't have to pay to enter a Church, all contributions are voluntary.

Catholics raised the profile of women. There is a reason why women are much better treated in the West than in the East. In the bible there are many figures of upright women who bring about salvation for God people : Esther Judith MAry to name but a few.

There was no power vacuum at the founding of the Church, the entire Roman world embrace paganism.

The Holy Roman empires reach did not extend the entirety of europe. It is physically impossible for them to burn every bible. If you want to belive then, that woudl eb mean your faith and all other Christian faiths are based off a Catholic bible.

[Mysthalin]

When a man looks at a women what traditionally does he do? Is he renowned for listening to every single word that comes from her mouth?

Is man renowned for listening to every single word that comes from another man's mouth? Bullshit. Don't tell me there weren't great women in history, that were great leaders. Jean D'Arc, for one - I'm pretty certain her followers hung on more or less so her every word.

Mary has always been considered the perfect human being. She would have to be since she brought God into the world. It would be ridiculous to claim that she was under satan spell for any moment. That would be like saying your mother slept with your worst enemy, would God really allow that? Even though she was perfect lesser beings were chosen to be the twelve. Even when there was a vacant postion due to Judas' suicide she was never chosen. Surely it would be common sense that if both men and women were allowed to be chosen, she would be the first. Yet she was not.

God allows for there to be orphans and for good people to die in terrible ways. What he allows or not is not a good argument.

The reason as to WHY Mary wasn't chosen is fairly simple, as you said. She was already perfect - Christ aimed to teach. How can you teach someone who is already perfect? It seems all women were perfect then - and we need perfect people to be our guides to salvation.

Faith's primary goal is the belief in God and our salvation not the repression of emotions, and in which case your argument that they would be better at controlling emotions is false.

Faith in it's essence is an emotion. And don't tell me that Christianitie's teaching that people go to live a better life in the afterlife isn't a way of repressing guilt and grief over the passing of a loved one. I didn't say women are better at controling their own emotions. They're better at manipulating the emotions of others. Ask another man to carry a weight for you, then make sure your wife asks the man a weight for her. Guess who'll he be more obliged to follow? Especially if both of you sob uncontrolably and complain of arm aches while asking for the assistance.

Under the principle of double effect it is better for one man to lose his life then for an enitre group of people to lose their eternal life.

I'm fairly certain that when you disobey one of the ten commandements (Thou shalt not kill) you're pretty much going to hell anyway. So yeah, you both kill an innocent man because he thought different, and you still all go to hell. Good job.

My argument have not been illogical they have been based on historical fact. Before the reformation in the 1600's name me one legitimate women priest?

You've dodged my argument that precedence means nothing. Just because people in the medieval times didn't have female priests doesn't make it a fundamental of the religion. Just like the fact that they BURNED PEOPLE doesn't make it a fundamental of the religion. Or shall you be going on a muderous arson rage today, to punish the non-believers?

[CubanLynx]

Men and women are not any different in the level of emotion experienced, it's just one gender is socially pressured not to betray their emotions while the other is encouraged to.

Experiments have been done to disprove this theory of the enviroment cause phycological differences. A boy was given a barbie to play with yet he promptly took it for a ride in his truck. In my own home this theory was disproven. MY mother contstnly reminds me with a laugh that she used to give my brother s dolls to play so that they would be gentle yet at the age of 2 and 3 they were pretend the doll was a gun.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Lads give me a chance to respond. The claim that was the Church was founded in the 300's by Constantine is a popular myth. There are records of Pope Clement, in AD96 iirc, who sent a letters to the Church in Corinth saying that he did have authority over them. This is a historically proven record. Cleary the Church did exist before the 300's

Priest do not get married becuase they are supposed to devote their life to the service of God and his people. A wife and kids would divide his attention.

We have manuscripts dating from Jewish times, and even the Jews nowadays use the same old testament we use. It is clear that  Bibles being burned is yet another myth.

You don't have to pay to enter a Church, all contributions are voluntary.

Catholics raised the profile of women. There is a reason why women are much better treated in the West than in the East. In the bible there are many figures of upright women who bring about salvation for God people : Esther Judith MAry to name but a few.

There was no power vacuum at the founding of the Church, the entire Roman world embrace paganism.

The Holy Roman empires reach did not extend the entirety of europe. It is physically impossible for them to burn every bible. If you want to belive then, that woudl eb mean your faith and all other Christian faiths are based off a Catholic bible.

Just read up on the Spanish Inquisition...the Catholics had all the reach in the world

D'Arc, for one - I'm pretty certain her followers hung on more or less so her every word.

Quite right Myst, lets not forget the Catholics had her burned too only to go Ooops, lets make her a saint now

Experiments have been done to disprove this theory of the enviroment cause phycological differences. A boy was given a barbie to play with yet he promptly took it for a ride in his truck. In my own home this theory was disproven. MY mother contstnly reminds me with a laugh that she used to give my brother s dolls to play so that they would be gentle yet at the age of 2 and 3 they were pretend the doll was a gun.

I think you should start talking to the Female gamers, they will set you straight. Also my Fiancee and i play rts's all the time together and those include guns and violence. Also with your experiments you neglect the fact that a father figure and mother figure alter the growth much more then a barbie ever would

[Mysthalin]

The claim that was the Church was founded in the 300's by Constantine is a popular myth

Yes, because you'll have a very easy time building churches and decorating them while you and your followers are being thrown into the colloseum or turend to slaves.

There are records of Pope Clement, in AD96 iirc, who sent a letters to the Church in Corinth saying that he did have authority over them. This is a historically proven record.

Cite the record, please.

You don't have to pay to enter a Church, all contributions are voluntary.

Especially the 10 percent tax you had to pay in the middle ages? Or all the taxes you pay if you want to hold Sermons, Weddings or Mass for your deceased relatives?

There was no power vacuum at the founding of the Church, the entire Roman world embrace paganism.

Yes, because clearly Rome was doing fine when it split into two(and later on Western Rome fell). And of course, you were quite free to be Pagan after the abolition of all other religions other than Christianity by Theodosius. Your logic astounds me.

The Holy Roman empires reach did not extend the entirety of europe.

Seeing as pretty much only The Holy Roman Empire was properly Christian, with any copies of the bible(books were too expensive to give to missionairies going abroad) - the HRE didn't NEED to cover all of Europe.

[Mysthalin]

Experiments have been done to disprove this theory of the enviroment cause phycological differences. A boy was given a barbie to play with yet he promptly took it for a ride in his truck. In my own home this theory was disproven. MY mother contstnly reminds me with a laugh that she used to give my brother s dolls to play so that they would be gentle yet at the age of 2 and 3 they were pretend the doll was a gun.

And I know of this experiment where a little girl played with boys all the time, playing their games and by the age of 14 was in the School Basketball Team, also being better than all the boys at the game. It's not even an experiment, actually - just a very common occurence within most US town social circles. These girls are usually reffered to as tom-boys.

Mother-figures and father-figures, as well as peer pressure are far more important to a girl in terms of how she behaves socially than her inherent values.

AmPm - girls have more connections between their two brain hemispheres, which results in better processing of multiple things going on at once, and especially in understanding signs. Since socialising and understanding the emotions of other people very often includes not HEARING what the other person is saying, but watching their body language and interpreting the other person's feelings by this alone - women are indeed better at conversation. Their vision is also peripheral, which allows them to notice more things at the same time(more body language processed) as opposed to our tunnel vision which is better for calculating distances, speeds and just being more accurate in throws, blows, etc. Women also have a more developed vocabulary than men do in most cases, and baby girls generally begin talking earlier than baby boys.

[CubanLynx]

Is man renowned for listening to every single word that comes from another man's mouth? Bullshit. Don't tell me there weren't great women in history, that were great leaders. Jean D'Arc, for one - I'm pretty certain her followers hung on more or less so her every word.
God allows for there to be orphans and for good people to die in terrible ways. What he allows or not is not a good argument.

The reason as to WHY Mary wasn't chosen is fairly simple, as you said. She was already perfect - Christ aimed to teach. How can you teach someone who is already perfect? It seems all women were perfect then - and we need perfect people to be our guides to salvation.
Faith in it's essence is an emotion. And don't tell me that Christianitie's teaching that people go to live a better life in the afterlife isn't a way of repressing guilt and grief over the passing of a loved one. I didn't say women are better at controling their own emotions. They're better at manipulating the emotions of others. Ask another man to carry a weight for you, then make sure your wife asks the man a weight for her. Guess who'll he be more obliged to follow? Especially if both of you sob uncontrolably and complain of arm aches while asking for the assistance.

I'm fairly certain that when you disobey one of the ten commandements (Thou shalt not kill) you're pretty much going to hell anyway. So yeah, you both kill an innocent man because he thought different, and you still all go to hell. Good job.
You've dodged my argument that precedence means nothing. Just because people in the medieval times didn't have female priests doesn't make it a fundamental of the religion. Just like the fact that they BURNED PEOPLE doesn't make it a fundamental of the religion. Or shall you be going on a muderous arson rage today, to punish the non-believers?

Joan of Arc was Catholic...and spartan I say Catholic to refer to the Church because it is the only Church which can claim to have an unbroken line of apostolic succesion.

God is perfect he cannot stand sin, he would not be born of a woman of sin. I beilive that is more or less is blasphemy. Christ teached his apolstles so that they could teach. Surely if Mary was perfect she would have taught, yet she did not. She lived quietly in St John's home.

Faith is not an emotion it is an act of the will, you an I can both chose to belive different things we don't feel like believing different things. Would my body really feel like believing that I should not eat everything I fell like or sleep as much as I should. I can want to believe that 2+2 = 5, I do not feel that belief.

It called the principle of double effect,  is it evil for me to steal from a rich man to feed orphans? No, the good outwieghs the bad. This is the same for heretics as I explained.

Precedence means everything. It is the same in courts of law. Have you not heard of cases being called a precedent? If you wish to follow in the footsteps of the man who founded the religion you must follow precedents otherwise you can do what you want with the religion.

Just out of interest what to sects of Christianity are you and Spartan from Mysth?

[AmPM]

Experiments have been done to disprove this theory of the enviroment cause phycological differences. A boy was given a barbie to play with yet he promptly took it for a ride in his truck. In my own home this theory was disproven. MY mother contstnly reminds me with a laugh that she used to give my brother s dolls to play so that they would be gentle yet at the age of 2 and 3 they were pretend the doll was a gun.

Really? Because my daughter loves toy cars, trucks, construction equipment, barbies, dolls, tea sets and hitting little boys that take her stuff.

Maybe its because of the social conditioning your parents did, not the toys you played with? Perhaps thats it! The toy is not whats important, the behavior the parents encourage is, especially since your brothers were obviously exposed to guns and violence early, as were most of us, and encouraged to enjoy it by our fathers.

[AmPM]

Joan of Arc was Catholic...and spartan I say Catholic to refer to the Church because it is the only Church which can claim to have an unbroken line of apostolic succesion.

God is perfect he cannot stand sin, he would not be born of a woman of sin. I beilive that is more or less is blasphemy. Christ teached his apolstles so that they could teach. Surely if Mary was perfect she would have taught, yet she did not. She lived quietly in St John's home.

Faith is not an emotion it is an act of the will, you an I can both chose to belive different things we don't feel like believing different things. Would my body really feel like believing that I should not eat everything I fell like or sleep as much as I should. I can want to believe that 2+2 = 5, I do not feel that belief.

It called the principle of double effect,  is it evil for me to steal from a rich man to feed orphans? No, the good outwieghs the bad. This is the same for heretics as I explained.

Precedence means everything. It is the same in courts of law. Have you not heard of cases being called a precedent? If you wish to follow in the footsteps of the man who founded the religion you must follow precedents otherwise you can do what you want with the religion.

Just out of interest what to sects of Christianity are you and Spartan from Mysth?

If god were perfect and abhors sin why did he create Lucifer?

[CubanLynx]

Really? Because my daughter loves toy cars, trucks, construction equipment, barbies, dolls, tea sets and hitting little boys that take her stuff.

Maybe its because of the social conditioning your parents did, not the toys you played with? Perhaps thats it! The toy is not whats important, the behavior the parents encourage is, especially since your brothers were obviously exposed to guns and violence early, as were most of us, and encouraged to enjoy it by our fathers.

IF this is the case how did it all start? Why all over the world do men and women hold the same roles? Even in deepest darkest africa men are hunters women are mothers.

[Spartan_Marine88]

AmPm - girls have more connections between their two brain hemispheres, which results in better processing of multiple things going on at once, and especially in understanding signs. Since socialising and understanding the emotions of other people very often includes not HEARING what the other person is saying, but watching their body language and interpreting the other person's feelings by this alone - women are indeed better at conversation. Their vision is also peripheral, which allows them to notice more things at the same time(more body language processed)

Wouldn't that make them better priests then men?

IF this is the case how did it all start? Why all over the world do men and women hold the same roles? Even in deepest darkest africa men are hunters women are mothers.

Actually you are understanding wrong Men are better hunters traditionally as they can take more of a beating, while women were the gatherers as they would know which plants were poisonous or not.

If god were perfect and abhors sin why did he create Lucifer?

And why did Horatio Caine catch him after he murdered the Dinosaurs