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Author Topic: Religion  (Read 33599 times)
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CubanLynx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 73


« on: July 19, 2010, 02:53:51 pm »

Ok Mysth you first.

1.The burning of Joan of Arc was a political move. The English wanted her out fo teh way since she was a major pain in the ass. Mark Twain a non Catholic who researched his book Joan of Arc for 10 years admitted that the court who tried her was corrupt and did not represent the Church.

2. The Catholic Church can show from now right to the apostles a line of legitmate Bishops. No other Church can do that. I fail to see how that is an assumption. You can go thorugh history and see who teh Apostles consecrated and who their successor created and so on and they will all end up Catholic.

3. I never said the apostles were perfect. I said that they taught despite not being perfect and yet a perfect creature did not teach. If both women and men were allowed to be priests it would be logical to chose a perfect person would it not?

4. I'm saying that you and I can choose what we want to believe. This is shown throught the placebo effect. People take drugs that do not scientifically work yet countless claims have been made by the takers that they do work. This is because they want to believe that it has worked.

5. Yes the police would arrest me but really would I have done wrong. Common sense says no. Double effect is when your action has two outcomes both good and bad. For the action to be lawful you must want the good and it must outwiegh the bad. Otherwise you can say that fighting Nazis german was wrong and Britain should have left them to it.

6. If you claim to follow a mans teachings then you have to follow his teachings. He is the precedent.

7.Religion is not something that can be proven by a formula but rather through logic. 2+2=5 not being true doesn't mean people won't believe in it. Its an extrremely crude example of relativism which is a commonly held philosopy today.

8.Everyone coming from africa is a theory. It is taught in schools because most Goverments are secular i.e. religion is a nothing to them. There is more evidence that the cradle of civilisation is mesopotamia (israel-iran area) they have found actual ancient cities and records of law and order and written languages. In africa they found a skull. You choose want you want to believe.

9. Exactly the HRe was not around in 96 Ad so could they have burned all the original bibles when we have bibles from 96ad? There was a ruined ship found in mesopotamia on a hill dating to BC times. Ever wondered why even aboriginal religions have a flood story?

10. Therefore its is impossible to do nothing you are either actively doing evil or actively doing good.

11. Mortal sins kill Gods life in your soul, they do not destroy it.


Ok AmPM now:

1. I'm saying that both men and women can do different roles but they are better at different roles. In the extreme cases men will fail more in roles suited to women and women will fail more in roles suited to men. For example women in special forces, or men looking after a large family while the motehr works.

2. God gaves us free will. It is up to us to exercise it. I can choose to punch my mother in the face or take he out to lunch. The punch is my fault not God's.

3.Not caring either way is an evil. There is no middle ground the same way something can either exist or not exist.


Guys to save my fingers we can do this over vent if you really want too. Once my family has gone to bed though. So that will be in like 2 hours or something. Or We can keep typing.

either way ill be off for an hour
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 03:00:07 pm by CubanLynx » Logged
Baine Offline
Steven Spielberg
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Posts: 3713


« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2010, 03:04:12 pm »

There's a theory, that there were different human races. Giants and such ya know, like those that survived the great flood and lived until they were killed by men like us. There were so many skeletons found in all areas of the world, proving to be from humans twice as big, and a theory says that there were giants in the time of dinosaurs too.
Giganticism, like all those ancient bugs, being as big as a dog etc.

Last but not least, i hate turtles.
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CubanLynx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 73


« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 03:07:25 pm »

Baine mate I'm sure your a nice guy but don't take the piss. Men and women have died for the beliefs I hold.
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Spartan_Marine88 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838



« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 03:09:23 pm »

Baine mate I'm sure your a nice guy but don't take the piss. Men and women have died for the beliefs I hold.

More were killed and forced to worship it then ever died to defend it
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Yes that's me, the special snowflake.
Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2010, 03:13:47 pm »

Quote
1.The burning of Joan of Arc was a political move. The English wanted her out fo teh way since she was a major pain in the ass. Mark Twain a non Catholic who researched his book Joan of Arc for 10 years admitted that the court who tried her was corrupt and did not represent the Church.
It still does not disprove the original point of me bringing her up - that women CAN and HAVE been great leaders in history.

Quote
2. The Catholic Church can show from now right to the apostles a line of legitmate Bishops. No other Church can do that. I fail to see how that is an assumption. You can go thorugh history and see who teh Apostles consecrated and who their successor created and so on and they will all end up Catholic.
Your assumption is that a church is made by there being apostles. It doesn't matter at all - a Church is formed once it has enough followers and a religious hierarchy, not if there's people from old times.

Quote
I never said the apostles were perfect. I said that they taught despite not being perfect and yet a perfect creature did not teach. If both women and men were allowed to be priests it would be logical to chose a perfect person would it not?
The apostes were taught by Jesus. How can you teach a perfect person anything? He's already perfect. That's the reason why Jesus didn't teach Mary - you keep dodging that.

Quote
4. I'm saying that you and I can choose what we want to believe. This is shown throught the placebo effect. People take drugs that do not scientifically work yet countless claims have been made by the takers that they do work. This is because they want to believe that it has worked.

Placebo works because having an optimistic outlook releases certain hormones which strengthen the immune system. Immune system equals more capability to fight an illness. However, you can eat placebo all you want - you're not getting cured from AIDS. Because it has already killed your immune system.

Quote
5. Yes the police would arrest me but really would I have done wrong. Common sense says no. Double effect is when your action has two outcomes both good and bad. For the action to be lawful you must want the good and it must outwiegh the bad. Otherwise you can say that fighting Nazis german was wrong and Britain should have left them to it.
Yes, you would have. You would have taken something that rightfully belongs to somebody else and used it for your own personal benefit - which is to make you feel better about donating to a just cause. You're still a thief looking out for your own good - even if it's not material. And yes - fighting Nazi Germany was bad. Just like every single other war in existence was bad. But Britain had a commitement in the form of an alliance, and it had to help it's allies. Going out on a signed contract usually bodes bad for the country backing out of it. Britain didn't fight because it wanted to save the world from the evil Nazis(which were far less evil than the Soviets) - but because they had a commitement.

Quote
6. If you claim to follow a mans teachings then you have to follow his teachings. He is the precedent.
So you're learning to walk on watter tomorrow, then?

Quote
7.Religion is not something that can be proven by a formula but rather through logic. 2+2=5 not being true doesn't mean people won't believe in it. Its an extrremely crude example of relativism which is a commonly held philosopy today.
Formulas are pure logic - they use maths, which is the base to all logic. No religion in the world has ever been based on logic - only on logical flaws. It is a common held philosophy in the mid 19th century that smoking is good for you. Being comonly held doesn't make the philosphy right,

Quote
8.Everyone coming from africa is a theory. It is taught in schools because most Goverments are secular i.e. religion is a nothing to them. There is more evidence that the cradle of civilisation is mesopotamia (israel-iran area) they have found actual ancient cities and records of law and order and written languages. In africa they found a skull. You choose want you want to believe.
Finding the "skull"(which is actually countless bones and other fossils) proves that man as a species originated in Africa. Cities, pots and everything else shows that civilisation first originated there. Have in mind China got it's fair share of cities and stuff at roughly the same time as the ones in Messopotamia.

Quote
9. Exactly the HRe was not around in 96 Ad so could they have burned all the original bibles when we have bibles from 96ad? There was a ruined ship found in mesopotamia on a hill dating to BC times. Ever wondered why even aboriginal religions have a flood story?

And that's exactly why the one who mentioned the books being burned said it happened when the HRE existed. Which means - not in 96 AD. You still haven't proven there being a Pope in 96 AD. The reason why most tribes have a flood story is because of the massive impact the whole melting of the ice and thusly floods that happened at the end of the last ice-age. I'm pretty sure seeing entire tribes whiped out from the low lands, drowned completely, would be something to pass on, generation to generation.

Quote
10. Therefore its is impossible to do nothing you are either actively doing evil or actively doing good.
Which is our point - evil isn't the lack of good, but an active thing. Therefore, if God created good - he created evil too.

Quote
11. Mortal sins kill Gods life in your soul, they do not destroy it.
And then what happens?
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brn4meplz Offline
Misinformation Officer
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 03:18:34 pm »

CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHAT CHURCHES AND RELIGION HAVE TO DO WITH THE SECOND WORLD WAR?


Seriously, I am confused right now
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He thinks Tactics is a breath mint

Wow I think that was the nicest thing brn ever posted!  Tongue

the pussy of a prostitute is not tight enough for destroy a condom Wink
Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2010, 03:18:57 pm »

Baine mate I'm sure your a nice guy but don't take the piss. Men and women have died for the beliefs I hold.

And men and women have died protecting the independence of my land from the Teutonic Order. Which, by the by, had absolute and complete protectionism by the Pope. Now, isn't the Pope supposed to be God's chosen upon the world? Therefore - more or less so perfect? How come couldn't he see the evil that was the Teutonic Order then? Raping women, pillaging, seeking nothing but power and personal wealth? Why would the perfect Pope(and not just one - dozens of Popes that lived as the Teutonic order did as well) be blind and sanctionise, and even SANCTIFY the pure evil that was the Teutonic Order? Particularly while the Teutonic Order was also attacking Poland(which had gone Christian long before the Order was formed) and, by then, converted Lithuania?
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Mysthalin Offline
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2010, 03:19:29 pm »

@Brn - Hitler had signed a Concordate with the Pope and the Church of Dresden sort of burned down. That's what we're building upon here.
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brn4meplz Offline
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2010, 03:41:58 pm »

No where in the last page have i seen anything about war or burning. Seems like you guys were on apostles and some crazy stuff
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CubanLynx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 73


« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2010, 04:04:02 pm »

And men and women have died protecting the independence of my land from the Teutonic Order. Which, by the by, had absolute and complete protectionism by the Pope. Now, isn't the Pope supposed to be God's chosen upon the world? Therefore - more or less so perfect? How come couldn't he see the evil that was the Teutonic Order then? Raping women, pillaging, seeking nothing but power and personal wealth? Why would the perfect Pope(and not just one - dozens of Popes that lived as the Teutonic order did as well) be blind and sanctionise, and even SANCTIFY the pure evil that was the Teutonic Order? Particularly while the Teutonic Order was also attacking Poland(which had gone Christian long before the Order was formed) and, by then, converted Lithuania?

Alright I'll deal with the little posts first.  Spartan what do you mean more have died in forced worship? I can gurantee you that in every age of man Catholics have been persecuted across the globe. In the Roman empire, other Pagan socities, in Islamic countries, in Protestant Countries in CHina in Nazis occuppied Europe (a german officer has testified that the calling sign in France for SS units was smashng crucifixes in Catholic Churches) Even In Sudan today muslim arab militia persecute the African Christians.

The Tuetonic order fought for Land not for the name of God. You cannot go on a Crusade against a Christian country. The Pope is not perfect. The Catholic Church never has and never will say that the Pope suddenly becomes perfect when he is elected.
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brn4meplz Offline
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2010, 04:24:41 pm »

Every religion, every faction has persecuted the other. The fact that there are so many factions/sects of a particular religion typically paints a bad image on everyone else.

Saying all Catholics are violent car bombing assholes because of what the IRA did in the 70's and 80's is no better then saying all Muslims are terrorists.

Persecution happens, live with it. The only way to avoid religious persecution is to do away with religion. Then we'd all be in here arguing over scientific persecution.
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Spartan_Marine88 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838



« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2010, 04:25:56 pm »

Alright I'll deal with the little posts first.  Spartan what do you mean more have died in forced worship? I can gurantee you that in every age of man Catholics have been persecuted across the globe. In the Roman empire, other Pagan socities, in Islamic countries, in Protestant Countries in CHina in Nazis occuppied Europe (a german officer has testified that the calling sign in France for SS units was smashng crucifixes in Catholic Churches) Even In Sudan today muslim arab militia persecute the African Christians.

The Tuetonic order fought for Land not for the name of God. You cannot go on a Crusade against a Christian country. The Pope is not perfect. The Catholic Church never has and never will say that the Pope suddenly becomes perfect when he is elected.

You seem to be peacefully blind of Catholicisms criminal massacres and murders of members of other catholic sects
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CubanLynx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 73


« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2010, 04:28:46 pm »

It still does not disprove the original point of me bringing her up - that women CAN and HAVE been great leaders in history.
Your assumption is that a church is made by there being apostles. It doesn't matter at all - a Church is formed once it has enough followers and a religious hierarchy, not if there's people from old times.
The apostes were taught by Jesus. How can you teach a perfect person anything? He's already perfect. That's the reason why Jesus didn't teach Mary - you keep dodging that.
 
Placebo works because having an optimistic outlook releases certain hormones which strengthen the immune system. Immune system equals more capability to fight an illness. However, you can eat placebo all you want - you're not getting cured from AIDS. Because it has already killed your immune system.
Yes, you would have. You would have taken something that rightfully belongs to somebody else and used it for your own personal benefit - which is to make you feel better about donating to a just cause. You're still a thief looking out for your own good - even if it's not material. And yes - fighting Nazi Germany was bad. Just like every single other war in existence was bad. But Britain had a commitement in the form of an alliance, and it had to help it's allies. Going out on a signed contract usually bodes bad for the country backing out of it. Britain didn't fight because it wanted to save the world from the evil Nazis(which were far less evil than the Soviets) - but because they had a commitement.
So you're learning to walk on watter tomorrow, then?
Formulas are pure logic - they use maths, which is the base to all logic. No religion in the world has ever been based on logic - only on logical flaws. It is a common held philosophy in the mid 19th century that smoking is good for you. Being comonly held doesn't make the philosphy right,
Finding the "skull"(which is actually countless bones and other fossils) proves that man as a species originated in Africa. Cities, pots and everything else shows that civilisation first originated there. Have in mind China got it's fair share of cities and stuff at roughly the same time as the ones in Messopotamia.

And that's exactly why the one who mentioned the books being burned said it happened when the HRE existed. Which means - not in 96 AD. You still haven't proven there being a Pope in 96 AD. The reason why most tribes have a flood story is because of the massive impact the whole melting of the ice and thusly floods that happened at the end of the last ice-age. I'm pretty sure seeing entire tribes whiped out from the low lands, drowned completely, would be something to pass on, generation to generation.
Which is our point - evil isn't the lack of good, but an active thing. Therefore, if God created good - he created evil too.
And then what happens?

1. I'm not saying they can't. This argument has digressed. Basically women can't become Priest because Christ never made a women a Priest even though logically he would chosen a perfect person (his mother) for the highest calling available to man. Surely he had a good reason for doing this even if it is unclear to some.

2.Christ founded the Church. He founded it on Peter and gave the apostles the powers and postion of governors of this Church. These apostles were given the power to chose there successors and so on down the line it goes. The direct line from the apostles is neccesary if you want to claim Christ founded your CHurch.

3.???I never said a perfect person was taught anything. I said that perfect people would be the ideal teachers. Jesus and Mary were perfect yet only Jesus taught. Why was that? Men and women have different roles. Being a priest is not one of the women's roles.

4.I never said believing something made it true. I merely was showing that you have the ability to want to believe something thereby showing that faith is an act of the will.

5.So you are saying that it is better to let a boy die then to steal some food from a wealthy man and feed him? If you truly belive thsi then you have no concept of right and wrong.

6. Please don't resort to mocking just because I refuted your argument and you have nothing intelligent to say back.

7.I would say that not believing in God and therefore in a religion is ill-logical. Only religion can explain the very begining of this world. All other theories start from an arbitary point where the world has already been created. Surely you would agree that it is logical to start from the beginning and move on to the middle and end at the end. If you don't start from the beginnning you can propose any theory you want and it will hold together.

8.The first records of legal system ( a major sign of civilisation) was in mesopotamia written by a guy called hamurabi, research him if you don't believe me. All historical fact points to this are being the cradle of society.

9.Once again this argument has gone off on a tangent. NOt all bibles could have been burnt by the holy roamn empire since Churches existed during its time outside its sphere of influence.  Also I refered to 96Ad becuase the manuscript we have from then is the same as its translation in our bible. Therefore we can say that the bible is still intact and has been handed down from the early times. There was a Pope in 96 AD, research Pope Clement. It is a fact that he was Pope we have numurous sources pagan and christian alike pointing to it. The fact that all religions have a flood story supports the idea of the human race coming from one family, Noah's, after the flood.

10. The point is that God out of his love for us allows us to choose what we want to do. We face the consequences since it is of our doing, we either go to heaven or hell. You would claim that he was an evil God if he forced you do things against your will.

11. By your choice you chose to live aprat from God and so you shall for all eternity.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 04:33:13 pm by CubanLynx » Logged
brn4meplz Offline
Misinformation Officer
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2010, 04:31:47 pm »

I saw this in a South Park episode. The Pope is actually supposed to be a rabbit.
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CubanLynx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 73


« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2010, 04:32:48 pm »

You seem to be peacefully blind of Catholicisms criminal massacres and murders of members of other catholic sects

Please then enlighten me. There is no suuch thing as Catholic sects by the way, either your in the Church or out of it.


Brn4me I'm saying that no other religion has been persecute so much globally. If you have another religion who has please tell me and I will stand corrected.

The IRA were Catholic but the Church never condoned their actions. They did have a just cause for their war they just went about in the wrong way. If you are familiar with english history you will know that since the reformation Catholics have been treated like crap. Even now if a person is Catholic they are not allowed to sit on the throne of england. Any other religion can though.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 04:36:33 pm by CubanLynx » Logged
CubanLynx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 73


« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 04:34:41 pm »

I saw this in a South Park episode. The Pope is actually supposed to be a rabbit.

I've said before and I'll say it again don't take this piss out of things people have died for it just makes you look bad. I don't make fun of people fighting and dying in iraq even though the legality of the war is in question.
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brn4meplz Offline
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 04:39:30 pm »

I wasn't joking about it I'm dead serious. I saw it in a South Park episode. Even though the legality of the church is in question.

I've got lots of angles, you want me to play the Priest + Boy = PR disaster angle?
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CubanLynx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 73


« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 04:45:00 pm »

You wanna go down that street eh? Well its not like there is a higher percentage of pedoes in the church then there are in the outside world. You know what else is intersting a communist man who became a priest died and among his belongs there was found an instruction sheet telling him to join the priesthood and generally do everything he could to wreck stuff. Its in a book called aa-10-25. Do you really think the church is without enemies. Surely you know that more dangerous then the enemy without is the enemy within. It aint that hard to become a preist you know..anyone who sets there mind to it can do it for what ever reason.......
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salan Offline
Synergies TL2 mod!
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Posts: 6290


« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2010, 04:48:47 pm »

And men and women have died protecting the independence of my land from the Teutonic Order. Which, by the by, had absolute and complete protectionism by the Pope. Now, isn't the Pope supposed to be God's chosen upon the world? Therefore - more or less so perfect? How come couldn't he see the evil that was the Teutonic Order then? Raping women, pillaging, seeking nothing but power and personal wealth? Why would the perfect Pope(and not just one - dozens of Popes that lived as the Teutonic order did as well) be blind and sanctionise, and even SANCTIFY the pure evil that was the Teutonic Order? Particularly while the Teutonic Order was also attacking Poland(which had gone Christian long before the Order was formed) and, by then, converted Lithuania?

isn't the current pope tied to some child sex scandal cover up in california?  I say arrest the fucker and throw him in jail and teach the religious bastards they aren't above the law Wink
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salan Offline
Synergies TL2 mod!
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Posts: 6290


« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 04:51:41 pm »

Oo.. yes I am right

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do
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