SIR (Starcraft in Ruins)

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[Grundwaffe]

Games don't make good TV

Ever watched this channel..?

[AmPM]

Well hell, if they made a shoutcast that followed units around with cool angles and all that I might watch it, I enjoy EvE videos for that reason too.

Normal shoutcasts just lack a certain flair and personality though.

ESports are meh. I could really care less about watching some people play video games or what they do in said video games. Real sport is interesting not only due to the strategies involved, but the physical and mental skills of the players. Someone that can really play is much more interesting than someone that can put out 200 mouse clicks in a minute.

[Grundwaffe]

someone that can put out 200 mouse clicks in a minute.

lol'd

[Malevolence]

Mate, I am talking about TELEVISED ESPORTS. Not people going to the WCG or someshit like that. There is a massive difference between going to an event where you can be in the atmosphere then sitting in your living room, watching it on TV.

Games don't make good TV, it's been repeated continuously throughout the last decade with the failures present.

Mate, I am also talking about televised esports. Not people going to the WCG or someshit like that.

Real sport is interesting not only due to the strategies involved, but the physical and mental skills of the players. Someone that can really play is much more interesting than someone that can put out 200 mouse clicks in a minute.

Because clicking 200 times a minute makes you win, of course, and not the physical precision control of the input devices and the mental skills.

The reflexes on professional video game players are absurd. Their physiques are absurd in the other direction, but that doesn't mean it's not hard work.

[Akranadas]

Ever watched this channel..?

Ever heard of XLeague.TV?
How about G4?

Both were western sole video game channels (UK and USA respectfully), they had massive funding and all the works to promote video game tv. Both channels have spectacularly failed.

[Malevolence]

Ever heard of XLeague.TV?
How about G4?

Both were western sole video game channels (UK and USA respectfully), they had massive funding and all the works to promote video game tv. Both channels have spectacularly failed.

G4 NEVER promoted video gaming like at all. I think it had like one show about professional gaming but it was commentated poorly and in game-show format. It fucking sucked.

[AmPM]

We like our sports full contact....even racing.

[Demon767]

this thread is epic lol

[Akranadas]

G4 NEVER promoted video gaming like at all. I think it had like one show about professional gaming but it was commentated poorly and in game-show format. It fucking sucked.

It showed video games, there for it promoted video gaming. Don't get angry at the facts.

[AmPM]

Besides, we all know Imperium in Ruins (DoW2 + EIR) would be much more epic.

[Malevolence]

It showed video games, there for it promoted video gaming. Don't get angry at the facts.

But despite its claims, it was not a "video game network". The amount of video games to other content was like less than a 50:50 ratio since its inception and the presentation was poor.

America doesn't "not want televised esports", we don't want SHITTY televised esports. Korea has an entire government office designed to run their esports in comparison...



And frankly Men of Ruin (men of war + eir) would be the best

[Akranadas]

G4 started off as a solely Gaming channel with the works, esports, reviews, countdowns, tips and tricks, cheat shows even shows devoted to the FPS games.

The problem wasn't the channel, it was the viewer ship; so they had to adapt to find ways to keep their viewers, which meant a little less pure gaming stuff and some more things like skits and comedy.

XLeague.TV was a pure esports channel in the UK, the problem however is finding new content to continuously play on the TV, imagine having to watch the same couple of matches over and over again. Gaming just doesn't provide enough new content to warrant a 24 hour channel, even with esports and ect, the amount of repeated content just drew the viewership away.

Korea is Korea, you can't apply what works there to anywhere else.

[Malevolence]

G4 started off as a solely Gaming channel with the works, esports, reviews, countdowns, tips and tricks, cheat shows even shows devoted to the FPS games.

The problem wasn't the channel, it was the viewer ship; so they had to adapt to find ways to keep their viewers, which meant a little less pure gaming stuff and some more things like skits and comedy.

No, it was the channel having bad content. I love esports and I hated G4. I STILL hate G4. And I still watch esports broadcasts on youtube ripped from korean television. Obviously I am a demographic that would be receptive to Esports channel, and there has been no "esports channel" as far as I'm concerned.

As I said, America doesn't want SHITTY televised esports. That doesn't mean America doesn't want esports PERIOD. Or anywhere else for that matter.

XLeague.TV was a pure esports channel in the UK, the problem however is finding new content to continuously play on the TV

Imagine if a sports network aired only the same matches over and over and had no new content. Nobody would watch that, either. You seem to be confusing "people hate televised esports" with "people hate crappy tv channels".

That's a very broad and very definite statement. I'd like some proof to back that up.

How do YOU know that esports hasn't caught on in the west because of this one, specific, reason?

And further, let me turn this question around on you: why would most people prefer to spend the 30-60 mins playing a video game instead of watching it when they're perfectly content to spend 30-60 mins watching sports and don't go play them instead? Both are games played by highly skilled players, and both are games that anybody can go play pretty much whenever they want.

Please do not ignore these requests.

this thread is epic lol

I heard telling people they suck as a flame is probably against the rules. I'd like an apology.

[Akranadas]

Man, you seem to find everything and pick at it.

Of course no one would watch sport channels if it played the same couple of matches over and over again, but sports channels like ESPN don't do that, they show hundreds of different sports during the week, you just could get that kind of content with a video game esports channel, because the sector just isn't large enough; even if you spliced in reviews and other small shows, you just couldn't produce enough new content every couple of weeks to keep the viewers interested.

How do I know Esports hasn't caught on in the west like it has in Korea? Well it's quite simple; how many hours of television is devoted to video gaming a week? 2? 12? 14? 46? I would say the number is quite low. In fact, the only real big name video game shows in the West are:

United States - X-Play, Gamehead, Attack of the Show.
Canada - The electric Playground, Reviews on the Run
UK - Playr
Australia - Good Game

How about Korea? Two dedicated gaming channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game. Even Russia has a 24/7 video game channel, Gameplay.TV.

What does the west have?

[Malevolence]

Of course no one would watch sport channels if it played the same couple of matches over and over again, but sports channels like ESPN don't do that, they show hundreds of different sports during the week, you just could get that kind of content with a video game esports channel, because the sector just isn't large enough; even if you spliced in reviews and other small shows, you just couldn't produce enough new content every couple of weeks to keep the viewers interested.

And... why not? Korean TV obviously has plenty to go around or people wouldn't watch it. Korean people won't watch boring repetetive TV either, they aren't THAT different. Obviously the problem is not the premise of esports, it's the current support base. We have no good dedicated commentators, no good broadcasting rights, and no centralized system of support to keep people playing games at a reasonable rate like in other professional sports. If there was a "starcraft season" and a "counterstrike season" and such, there'd be plenty of footage to go around.

Soccer isn't big in the united states because we haven't MADE it big like other countries have. Poor presentation does not mean the content is bad, but it is a huge turn-off for a lot of people. Esports has terrible marketing, frankly, from what I've seen of it over here.

How do I know Esports hasn't caught on in the west like it has in Korea?

That's not what you said.  You said "in the West there is not a market for esports". Please substantiate the claim that there is no market for esports in the west.

What does the west have?

Nothing, meaning its market is totally open for a not-terrible gaming network.

The vast amount of gaming that goes on in the US and other "western" countries coupled with the enormous international fandom of things like commentaries of Starcraft on sites like Youtube leads me strongly to believe that there is indeed a significant market segment within most "western" countries that would be appealed to by appropriately marketed electronic sports league related products and services. The very fact that a company like Razer can exist without being bankrupt is testament to that. The difference between G4 and Razer? Razer markets its products as totally badass, G4 markets its products with a limp wrist and a yawn. Electronic sports falls squarely inside the "edgy" and "escapism" categories of marketing, and G4 and other networks failed to advertise their product in a way that is appropriate to their market segment and had to redesign their approach (in this case their product, not their marketing). It is no wonder that they failed while a company like Razer can succeed.

But, if you have good evidence that there is, in fact, absolutely no market for esports in western countries, I'm waiting to hear it.

[acker]

I don't know about Europe (though I do expect some similarities), but E-sports haven't caught up in the United States for several reasons.

First and foremost, the US already has a few sports that are quite entrenched in its culture. Korea didn't exactly have this problem, considering that they only became a "developed" nation a decade or two ago.

Secondly, the US is over a decade behind in terms of Internet use in comparison to that of Korea. Not only that, but the US will take around fifteen years to catch up to "average" South Korean Internet speed...assuming that South Korean internet speed stands still for 15 years. This poses obvious problems towards creating some sort of national E-sport in the United States. Korea is also, as a whole, more technologically-advanced than the United States.

Thirdly, South Korea is a small country; it's fairly easy for national teams to assemble and play against one another. This helped keep start-up costs for E-sports low. Always a plus. A single language also helped (though, admittedly, this is a European problem, not an American one).

I'm probably missing a few points. Ah, well.

I suspect that, as the average US citizen catches up, that they'll start to accept E-sports more and more. Give it twenty to thirty years or so, it will take time. Probably somewhat less time for Europe, I'm seeing a lot of solid, innovative SC2 semi-pros from Europe on TL.

And due to proximity+development, China is going to be the next new star for E-sports, their WC3 teams are (well, were, quite a few players are switching to SC2) already top of the world. Assuming their government doesn't crack down on it.

[Guderian]

CoH mimics the randomness of people.
When you play CoH you are never in control, therefore you are always being innovative.
In starcraft you can pre-plan responses to in-game situations.

They both require innovation, but one requires more memory while the other requires more live problem-solving.
Starcraft benefits the precise, memory-based player. Remember all unit counters, armour types, upgrade indicators, micro techniques.
CoH benefits the creative, problem solver. Figure out a way to get what you want, at minimal risk, think of a contingency, which location gives me the most advantage since the map was changed.

For example;
In EiR I have some call ins that are straight up weird. scouting, jeep+ flame, mine, engi + mortar. It cannot counter anything, but it gives me the general ability to improve my defensive position, and potentially destroy others. low risk low benefit. vs a KT, high risk, high benefit

Starcraft rewards the creative problem solver day9 have talked a lot about this in his cast
Its not all unit counters there is where the macro part comes in you cannot get everything at once
You have to prioritize and use what you have

Poker is interesting to watch because the players themselves are interesting. Computer games just have people looking at a monitor and clicking a mouse and keyboard. Guitar Hero is more interesting to watch.

Watching a shoutcast is quite different from watching a televised event, you never have to see the player in a shoutcast.

What are you talking about?
There are huge celebrities and public favorites in the west as well
Ranging from fatality to jae dong to whiterra

[NightRain]

Starcraft with Company of Heroes Engine. Whose up for it?

[Ununoctium]

Starcraft with Company of Heroes Engine. Whose up for it?

totally.

Void ray strafing runs, zergling creep gives yellow cover only to zerg
medic ship produces zombie squads
Although the fact that the game has only what, 3 vehicles?

[AmPM]

It's got like 5 per side =p