Vet Rework

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[bbsmith]

Alright guys! How would you like to help out with the Vet rework? Use your imagination and come up with a 3 and/or 5 Level vet list.

Things to keep in Mind.

1. Don't Buff both survivability and offensive strength.
One of the major problems with Vet 3 Hoards is that they are pretty much straight upgrades to the normal units. We don't want Grenadiers that can kill everything and survive Sherman shots.

2. Focus on a Single Buff type
If we focus on buffing only Damage output on units, we can have high vet units that are still stronger, but die just as quick as any other unit. With improper use the units will still die and wont have extra survivability as a clutch. This also removes the problem of having units be able to stand up to their hard counters (Survive Tank Shots). Defensive or survivability orientated units like the StuG or a Jeep would probably focus on having defensive buffs.

3. Vet should not remove the weaknesses of the unit.
Buff the strong points of a unit so it can better for fill its role. Don't use vet as a way of removing weaknesses of the unit.

4. Vet buffs should be in hard numbers and not your percentages.
Do your math homework. We don't want blanket percentages covering a wide range of units. Obviously percentages work better on units which are stronger to begin with. This allows the stronger units to maintain vet easier and become easier to vet hoard.

5. Vet should not overlap or overbuff when combined with doctrines
Nothing is set in stone yet, but try not to over do the Vet. We are aiming for stronger doctrines and weaker more balanced Vet.

6. Vet 2 (3 Level System) or Vet 3 (5 level System) should contain the unit specific buffs.
Thing such as Sticky Bomb range +10, or extra M8 mine should be towards the middle of the vet so it is not impossible to obtain and also not common enough for every unit to have.
Try to think up a good Vet 2 buff for every unit.

7. No Range Buffs in Vet
Range buffs on Vehicles take them out of their role or vastly increases their effectiveness.
Range buffs on Infantry are not as useful but should be avoided in Vet.

8. Rankings of Survivability Buffs
Received Accuracy-Best Defensive buff because of chance of taking no damage.
Received Penetration-Unit Dependent, good for chances of taking no damage.
Received Damage- More powerful than HP because Received damage doesn't reduce the effectiveness of Medkits or Repairs like increased Max HP will.
Increased HP- Your Basic HP Increase
Received Suppression- Your always going to get suppressed eventually

9. Rankings of Offensive Buffs
Damage- How can you kill without damage?
Accuracy- Hitting more often is always good, especially for fast firing weapons or long term battles.
Penetration- Not penetrating is never good. That's what she said.
Suppression- Suppression is only useful on units that can actually suppress

10. Buffs to Avoid in Doctrines (Overlaps with Doctrines)
Sight, Speed, Acceleration

[NightRain]

Why not have infantry seperate vet bonus things like PE gets in VCoH? Either Offence or Defence, Two points for Defence one Offence, etc

[Mysthalin]

Offencive boosts :

you forgot Cooldown and Reload.

[bbsmith]

I didn't want cooldown and reload in Vet. Things should do more damage not fire faster. Cooldown and Reload lead to more problems than just increasing Damage.

[Smokaz]

Can we suggest a list for certain unit types, or does it have to be for all units? Also do you mean vet 0 to 3 and 3 to 5, or just vet 3 to 5? I for instance would be more interested in say, suggesting a list for PE vet 3 to 5. And some other guy might just have interest in posting american light vehicles vet 3 to 5.

you've come a long way with explaining the system you want suggestions to fit into bob. i am impressed. clap clap

[rifle87654]

Expenrienced crew do things better.
Therefore, your garand reloads faster.
That guy can be more accurate.
But damage?
7.62 rounds does the same dmg imo.
Just the difference between lethal and unlethal.
Heart or Head? Either way Jerry's dead.

[bbsmith]

For Vet 1:
I liked +5 HP across the board for Infantry
-10% Received Accuracy for Light Vehicles and Support Teams
-10% Received Damage for Tanks

[bbsmith]

Expenrienced crew do things better.
Therefore, your garand reloads faster.
That guy can be more accurate.
But damage?
7.62 rounds does the same dmg imo.
Just the difference between lethal and unlethal.
Heart or Head? Either way Jerry's dead.

Whats that have to do with Balance?

[rifle87654]

Whats that have to do with Balance?

faster reload and accuracy makes sense
improved dmg don't

[Mysthalin]

Like I've said before - +5 HP for infantry across the board would be heavily skewed in the favor of axis. +5 Hp wouldn't help riflemen against a single of the axis rifles, whereas +5 HP for the axis would help every single one of their infantry(except maybe Pzgrens vs lee enfields).

[Smokaz]

Like I've said before - +5 HP for infantry across the board would be heavily skewed in the favor of axis. +5 Hp wouldn't help riflemen against a single of the axis rifles, whereas +5 HP for the axis would help every single one of their infantry(except maybe Pzgrens vs lee enfields).

5 hp across the board would technically also mean that allied gain more hp overall on their larger squad size units

[bbsmith]

American squads are bigger so they get a larger benefit from +5 HP.

M1 hits to kill single Volks
(57 to Red) (61.75 to Red)
5.7 Hits to 6.175 Hits

M1 hits to kill Full Volks Squad
~28.5 Hits to 30.875 Hits

K98k Volks hits to kill single Riflemen
(52.25 to Red) (57 to Red)
5.225 Hits to 5.7 Hits

K98k Hits to Kill Full Rifle Squad
~31.35 Hits to ~34.2 Hits

K98k Gren hits to kill single Riflemen
(52.25 to Red) (57 to Red)
~3.484 Hits to ~3.8 Hits

K98k Hits to Kill Full Rifle Squad
~20.904 Hits to ~22.8 Hits


M1 Hits to Kill Single Gren
(76 to Red) (80.75 to Red)
~7.6 Hits to ~8.075 Hits

M1 Hits to Kill Gren Squad
~30.4 Hits to ~32.3 Hits

While this is hardly an accurate measure of the value of +5 HP its a good overview.

[Mysthalin]

It is a skewed overview, however. Squad health sizes are generally irrelevant in such situations - and you are utilizing overly dificult maths in this calculation, hence getting a wrong picture of what actually happens.

If we look by individual rifleman :
55 HP goes to 60 HP.

Grenadier rifle at 15 damage/shot :
From 4 shots to kill to 4 shots to kill.

Volks Rifle at 10 damage/shot :
From 6 shots to kill to 6 shots to kill.

Panzergrenadier Rifle at 12 damage/shot :
From 5 shots to kill to 5 shots to kill.

Now, let's compare volksgrenadier vs M1 Garand and Lee Enfield.

60 health goes to 65.

Garand at 10 damage/shot
6 shots to kill to 7 shots to kill.

Squad takes 5 more shots to die.

Lee Enfield at 12 damage/shot
5 shots to kill to 6 shots to kill.

Squad takes 5 more shots to die.

Grenadier goes from 80 health to 85 health.

Garand at 10 damage/shot.
8 shots goes to 9 shots.

Squad takes 4 more shots to die.

Lee Enfield at 12 damage/sho.
7 shots to kill goes to 7 shots to kill.

[bbsmith]

Units don't die at full hp they die between 95-100% of their full hp.

[Smokaz]

P4 shoot rifle in heavy cover - rifle takes 47 damage.

Normally the guy would be standing with 8 hp. Now he stands with 13. its the difference between surviving a g43 shot or not. It may make him get off his sticky or a grenade.

CoH's a complicated game, bro. Not every benefit is super obvious.

[Mysthalin]

Units don't die at full hp they die between 95-100% of their full hp.

True, how is it relevant in this situation however?

Do the calculations yourself - you'll see I'm right.

Smokie, so you're saying the vet 1 for riflemen should help them in that one very specific situation where they get shot by a Panzer 4 in cover, and then afterwards by a G43? While the volksgrenadier gains an actual tangible bonus in every fight he has against a tommy or rifle squad?

Also, no - you would still die to the G43 shot at 12 damage, since you'd be put into red health.

[Nimitz]

Uh, might someone tell me why we are reworking the vet system anyways?

People think some bonuses are too strong or what?

[Demon767]

vet 4 = name the unit. you dont need any more buffs that will make it all perfect. thats what everyone wants

[bbsmith]

CoH has too many random factors than to just proclaim that +5 HP wont have an effect overall.
My math is to prove that there is an actual benefit from getting +5 HP. You wont be sitting there fighting the same unit 1v1 down to the last man. +5 HP is a slight buff, and is exactly what a vet 1 buff should be. I could go hunt down specific scenarios where +5 HP would have a real effect being the difference between Red and Yellow HP and Yellow and Green HP, but I don't feel like it. Axis units do more damage and Allied units have more men. It should balance out more or less.

Vet 1 Buff +5 HP is basically 20-30 HP on a squad
-10% Received Damage for Tanks, generally means 1 Extra hit.
-10% Received Accuracy for Light Vehicles is self explanatory.

[Mysthalin]

But that's exactly my point, Bob.
In the majority of cases of infantry fighting infantry(since the +5HP won't generally affect infantry fighting tanks anyway) - the axis are just generally getting the better end of the deal than the lowly rifleman.

I guess you COULD hunt down some VERY specific instances(which don't make up even 2 percent of all engagements) where the 5 extra health could be useful to the rifleman. But in the vast majority of cases - it's not. It's the reason why Allied grit failed epically as a T3 back in the old days, if you remember(1.10 health on rifles woo).