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Author Topic: Fix the mod - No doctrine rework  (Read 11829 times)
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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Posts: 1068


« on: November 01, 2010, 03:25:23 am »

 So I've been pondering it for a while; seriously discussing it with other players, and examining it from every angle.
And there's is absolutely no fucking reason for yet another doctrine rework.
It's just going to sap resources from the mod which could be put to better use, and will probably outright kill the mod. It's a shitty idea, and it's being done in a shitty manner. Welp.

 Not that long ago the mod was dead. Zero players online, zero games being played, and no work actually being done. Nothing. Then the campaign was implemented, which actually brought some life to the mod. People began playing again, old players returned and new player registration dramatically increased. The campaign had saved the mod by giving players a reason to play, and adding a whole new level to the persistence aspect of things.
The campaign ended just recently, and already we've seen a huge drop in both players and registration. No one is interested in sticking around, because no one is interested in playing an unfun, unbalanced POS run by devs who don't update the mod, don't even play the mod, don't give a shit about their player base, and who seem to be more interested in using the mod as their play-thing, rather than actually creating a decent, presentable product. They've forgotten that without a playerbase, there is no mod. That if the community is unhappy, there is no future. And the community is unhappy.

 The doctrine rework isn't going to fix this, and in fact will only make things worse. The current doctrines aren't half-bad and could easily be fixed with a small amount of tweaks. Little things that would take mere minutes to implement :
-Hard-cap all officer units: bam, no more unstoppable marauding Infantry officer death blobs, FOO spam, or CCT spam, etc.
-Make Asymmetric Warfare only affect AB units: bam, the stupidest, most unfun, unbalanced, most complained-about ability in the mod is balanced.
-Remove suppression from Incendiary Assault nades, and make all Assault-like abilities throw a max of 5 grenades each: voila, the most spammable abilities in the game have been brought into line.
etc.

 These simple changes would take moments to implement, and yet would increase the playability of this mod by a dozen times. But instead, all we get, at best, is "It won't make it into the rework, so don't worry." Yeah, the rework. That's exactly what the community wants right now: to be stuck with buggy, unfun bullshit for months while the devs design, develop, create, code, implement, test, balance, release, then further balance things. And for a reason only God knows, they're doing all twelve doctrines at once, which will make things even more complicated; longer to create, and harder to balance. These new doctrines are, of course, all dev-created, with little to no input from the community. The 'discussions' that were held were a fucking joke, and it was nice to see the mods pat themselves on the back while the community sat slack-jawed at the reworks before them. Which leads us to the reworks themselves.

 They're terrible. They do literally everything worse than the current doctrines, and kill any sort of individuality. Almost every single doctrine gets a recon-like ability, an anti-infantry offmap and an anti-tank offmap. Armor players will no longer fear ATGs, because they can instantly reveal all weapon crews, and just drop a White Phosphorous strike on them to instantly kill it, same with Blitz and Precision Strike. Luftwaffe can unlock MGs, mortars, and snipers, therefore negating the largest problem facing PE (and Luft in particular). Etc. It kills all strategy and all tactics. It kills the reliance on teamwork and cooperation, and instead makes every doctrine self-supporting and all-powerful. The doctrine buffs themselves are also retarded in buffing way too many units with way too much stuff. Heroic armor and criticals are given out everywhere, units are buffed that shouldn't be, and all the abilities do way too much shit.

 Instead, the devs should be putting their attention towards what actually needs to be done, and towards what the community actually wants:

-Another campaign. It's what brought life back to the mod, and it's what will keep players interested. People want one, and it'd be the best thing for the mod right now. Without one, the mod is already dieing again. It needs to be built in to the launcher, and have a warmap. It needs to be more automated, and less complicated. Now that we've had a campaign already and established the ground rules, we know a lot about what we have to do, and how to do it. The entire mod's effort needs to be put into developing this campaign, not designing more 'cool' (ie overpowered) shit, or wasting time with yet more doctrines.

-Implement an RCA doctrine. RCA players, and the mod as a whole, have gone far too long without a doctrine, and there's really no excuse. One could easily be created by simply taking the old doctrine, and removing/balancing everything that got it removed in the first place (ie the insane power and number of offmaps), or even by having the community draw one up themselves.

-Fix huge balance issues that have been plaguing the mod for an inexcusable amount of time. Things like Asymmetric Warfare, Incendiary Assault, Assault nades, vehicles that fully operate while repairing, Infantry Officer death blobs, etc. As I mentioned before, the necessary changes are blatantly obvious, and would take less than a day to resolve every major balance concern. Further tweaks, balances and changes could be done very easily, as well, if the devs would just listen to the community for once.

 There's a lot that should be changed, and even more that needs to be. But the basis is the same: another doctrine rework is the last thing the community wants or the mod needs. We've already seen a decline in new players, we're losing veteran players like crazy, and everyone is unhappy with the current state of the mod.

 I wish I was alone in thinking this, but I'm not. I've spoken to dozens of players about this, and it's pretty much universally acknowledged that the mod's current trend needs to stop.
Some things I've heard, from experienced players, and long-time members:
"I can't believe the devs have let the mod rot like this."
"I have lost all confidence in the development team to do anything right anymore."
"If I thought the devs could actually do something right, I might donate again."
"Somehow, CoH:O is more balanced than EiR."
"Fuck this, I'm going to OMG."
(I'm not going to post who said what, but they can admit to it if they want)

 This post is far too long, and yet I'm still not done. I could go on and on about how the new doctrines are terrible, how the devs seem to blatantly ignore the community's pleas, how the community is desperately unhappy with EiRR, how we're losing even our most dedicated players, or any other topic like that; and I will, if asked to elaborate. But for now, I think you get the point.
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NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3908



« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 03:38:27 am »

Agreed, ontop of it, Devs are going to do a veterancy Rework ontop of it all! Awsome, except it takes too long, the faster things are done the better the community is. We all know what happens if population is unhappy, they start leaving and the leaving stops only when there's 0 players left.

Bring RCA in
Balance AB
Nerf IA
Fix Churchill Mark 4s
Nerf US Officer
Balance Asymetric Warfare

ASK Help from Community! => The happier they are the more motivated they are = more profit in terms of: Maps, videos, more players => more games => Moar fun

Devs indeed are working HARD...but all the work effort is diverted onto too many subjects and on WRONG things...such like this Doctorine Rework and Veterancy Rework. Fix the current Doctorines that's what the community wants. Put the effort into useful things instead of useless and fix one thing at a time. Make more Spesific GOALS to complete

ps. carrot's balls are saved from castration
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 04:06:26 am by NightRain » Logged

Because a forum post should be like a woman's skirt. Long enough to cover the subject material, but short enough to keep things interesting.
MorkaandBorka Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1464



« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 03:41:52 am »

Btw this is a totally genuine post and I would relish the opportunity to see more peoples answers to this question on how to fix this mod.  Ill post more tomorrow on it, and I agree with everything that Carrot is talking about.
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nugnugx Offline
Donator
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Posts: 4051



« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 03:45:41 am »

Quote
-Remove suppression from Incendiary Assault nades, and make all Assault-like abilities throw a max of 5 grenades each: voila, the most spammable abilities in the game have been brought into line.
etc.


this is half - true


Incendiary assault has suppress because it makes only fire damage , without suppress you will just move out of the fire.


The first assult in  vanilla coh was balanced the best , there was no suppress but the nades made damage. So you could move out of them , but if you'd get hit , you would feel it.

Incendiary assault without suppression will be useless , thus it should be changed to normal assault like in vanilla or changed to something else.

Vanilla CoH had the best balance , it was working. If something is working don't change it , but many things has been changed since then , wer and americans should be left alone like they used to be and there should be only tweaks to brit and pe if something would be op or up
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 03:47:49 am by nugnugx » Logged

Tymathee Offline
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Posts: 9741



« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 03:47:06 am »

I feel the same way and i've seen quite a few people go this way, rather than redoing it all, just fix what's broken, we like what we've got, have gotten used to it and only really have a few gripes with things.

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Tymathee Offline
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 03:49:24 am »


this is half - true


Incendiary assault has suppress because it makes only fire damage , without suppress you will just move out of the fire.


The first assult in  vanilla coh was balanced the best , there was no suppress but the nades made damage. So you could move out of them , but if you'd get hit , you would feel it.

Incendiary assault without suppression will be useless , thus it should be changed to normal assault like in vanilla or changed to something else.

i think it should be without suppression so it's not used as a ground assault weapon but more of a stationary assault weapon. This way you make it specialized, dont have to change the cost and it's still dang good, you think an at gun, hmg, mortar, infantry or any type in a house will survive the volley of fire?
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nugnugx Offline
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 03:52:39 am »

i think it should be without suppression

implement normal assault vanilla coh style and it's fixed.




edit : instead of fix i'd should say  BOTH sides will be happy.

The biggest grip i see that allies mention is the suppression -  vanilla assault has no suppression.

Axis will be happy also , because what you propose renders assault useless. What i propose makes assault do what it's supposed to do, kill inf.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 04:07:50 am by nugnugx » Logged
TheLastArmada Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 215



« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 04:00:35 am »

From my perspective the devs seem to be increasing their work load Mt Everest style

Why knock down what weve taken so long to build when all we needed to do was to add some support to an already solid structure

I.E
Complete Doctrine rework ?? why when we havent even got all the doctrines in completely
Fix Op abilities..... Inc Assault, Ass Warfare etc

Cementing what Carrot Said earlier the Groundfire Campaign brought an influx of New and Old players backinto EIR
the likes of which i have never seen.
Your work doesnt go unoticed devs, but only when something noticable happens
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nugnugx Offline
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 04:04:33 am »

Quote
-Another campaign. It's what brought life back to the mod, and it's what will keep players interested. People want one, and it'd be the best thing for the mod right now. Without one, the mod is already dieing again. It needs to be built in to the launcher, and have a warmap. It needs to be more automated, and less complicated. Now that we've had a campaign already and established the ground rules, we know a lot about what we have to do, and how to do it. The entire mod's effort needs to be put into developing this campaign, not designing more 'cool' (ie overpowered) shit, or wasting time with yet more doctrines.


Warmap should be like an ongoing campaign if i get it right. We just have to wait for it.
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Nevyen Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 2365


« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 04:37:46 am »

For the very first time ever,  I agree with the above.

Not sure what else to say,  There is something wrong with the current state of affairs and I blame one person and hes handle starts with G.

I'm leaving it at that. 
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panzerman Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 689


« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2010, 05:19:48 am »

the current doctrines are almost the most balanced they have been...

if anything should be redone i think it would be luft atm made everyone go wtf is this and alot of people kinda droped out of using luft for abit :S i loved the old luft cause it was the perfect counter to ab!
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 05:40:36 am »

Quote
Not sure what else to say,  There is something wrong with the current state of affairs and I blame one person and hes handle starts with G.


Dave! Dave! David! Come! Listen! Nevyen had something good to say for once!


At any rate guys - you're forgetting one of the most important things within this doctrinal rework. And that is the fact most of the doctrines are being re-built from what we currently already have. If you looked at Defensive, for instance - all it's getting is an overall face-lift to make it more appealing to players(because - honestly.. it's not that popular of a doctrine). Armor is just getting it's main super-strengths dilluted. RCA, despite it's severely over-the-top first appearance has now been put into a very presentable state(and from what I gather, it is going to be implemented first and foremost, before the patch (I'm not even going to say rework) of the other doctrines).

Secondly - the person that would code the warmap and the people that are coding the doctrines are simply different people.

Warmap is entirely SCAR and Launcher Code(C++ IIRC) - which is handled by Luci alone(could be someone else helping him, but I'm not sure).

The doctrines are being coded by our RGD guys. Since Gamesguy's away - that leaves :
BoBSmith
Firesparks
Brn4meplz (when he feels like it).

What I'm getting at is that the doctrine rework happening is not in any way increasing the amount of time before the launcher-based campaign comes out.
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Nevyen Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 2365


« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 05:44:51 am »

My god how have things changed, you now spend time defending the mod Myst?

How have the mighty fallen!

Tongue
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Smokaz Offline
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010, 06:02:22 am »

Main reason one would assume there is a big workload, is the exclusiveness of being accepted into the inner ranks I suspect. It's hard to be attain RGD or SQL access and only gamesguy and firesparks was accepted in last time, firesparks has been droning on while Gamesguy dissapeared.

I know I put in a inquiry to do some RGDs a while back, but I wasn't accepted. I didn't even get a reply, even though I had questions about how to qualify for this and how to provide them. Not very professional, but it's just a game mod eh?

I don't know how hard it is to do RGD work, I know scar coding is definitely hard (and a lot of work just objectively), doctrine's are mainly RGD work except for some special mechanics so it's all about uh, signing yourself up I guess.. and then being accepted.

At any rate the new doctrines are coming, it's a decided to go through with piece of work so just accept it and sign up for RGD duty?

(I reserve the right to be wrong about any of this)

« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 06:06:14 am by Smokaz » Logged

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Unkn0wn Offline
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Posts: 18379


« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010, 06:03:08 am »

Quote
It's just going to sap resources from the mod which could be put to better use, and will probably outright kill the mod.
Blatantly untrue, it's primarily Bob, brn and Firesparks (to a lesser extent afaik) that are doing the doctrine coding. This is all SQL/RGD coding and has nothing to do with what EIRRmod is working on. (The sexy new features such as warmap, reworked grind, etc etc etc)

If it wasn't for the doctrine reworks they'd just be sitting on their asses anyway.

Also, kill the mod? Really now?

Quote
They're terrible. They do literally everything worse than the current doctrines
I'm amazed at how a doctrine rework that retains 80% of the abilities of the current ones can do EVERYTHING worse than the current doctrines.

Quote
-Fix huge balance issues that have been plaguing the mod for an inexcusable amount of time.
A lot of the things you listed have fixes slated for the next release and/or will be fixed in the doctrine rework.


I understand your sentiment, but you're blatantly exaggerating the issue. It is a fair concern and I'm glad you took the time to post this here. If a lot of players feel this way I'm sure we can come to some sort of an understanding.
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shockcoil Offline
griefer & spammer
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1566



« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2010, 06:14:48 am »

Another campaign while we wait would be nice, preferably where the rules don't change every turn.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2010, 06:55:03 am »

Come on now Nev - everything I've ever said has been said so due to my belief that it's in the mod's best interests!

If I believe the mod is being taken in a good direction - I speak out for the way headed. If I believed it was doing something wrong - you'd see me whinge about it. Thought you knew that by now ;P.
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rifle87654 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1107


« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2010, 07:04:50 am »

How long does it take to fix something?
I think players should supervise the progress of mods/devs.
Or something like this would happen:
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Brn4meplz: I'm drunk.
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"Salan's status on MSN":
Watching a movie with the kidlets.
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Anyway he's hilarious.
Nevyen Offline
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2010, 07:40:48 am »

Come on now Nev - everything I've ever said has been said so due to my belief that it's in the mod's best interests!

If I believe the mod is being taken in a good direction - I speak out for the way headed. If I believed it was doing something wrong - you'd see me whinge about it. Thought you knew that by now ;P.

I guess it gets hard to tell amongst the self righteous, arrogant and prickly sentiments that i see, and have seen with you. 

It wasn't enough for you to say that you agree with the sentiments of another poster, but you had to throw a sideways insult into the mix just for the hell of it.

Tank has a point about you.

To think when you cracked it and walked off in huff from the mod and I made the specific effort after you spoke to me, to address the comments in peoples signatures, which included a fair amount of vitriol towards yourself.  Addressed the way certain posters where attacking you in the forums, that I find myself thinking, really wasted my time there. 

If you thought it was funny, or better still thought it was in good taste, you should of reconsidered the way you posted.  We have had some reasonable banter in the past, but to be honest mate you spend more time insulting people than you do actually talking sense.

So with all due respect

Fuck off really don't have the time or the effort anymore.



As to the Mod,

Unknown I see your points mate and you know that I would usually agree on all those points, I guess the level of dissatisfaction from the players I'm coming into contact with is palatable, and it seems that the fix's are reasonably simple in the short run.  Surely these fix's can be made in the short run while the major work continues?

Wouldn't that be a fair compromise?

Keep the player-base happy, allow the Dev the time needed to continue the real coding work and make it to the final goal of the campaign War-map.


Anyway I'm sure it will all work out in the end,  it just needs a little more urgency I think. 


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tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2010, 07:44:22 am »

I understand your sentiment, but you're blatantly exaggerating the issue. It is a fair concern and I'm glad you took the time to post this here. If a lot of players feel this way I'm sure we can come to some sort of an understanding.


I think a lot of players do feel this way.

I think some posts have cleared up a bit of misunderstanding as well. For some reason, the community at large feels there is a complete doctrine rework coming out. Some posts here have clarified some misunderstandings; it is not a complete rework, just a tweaking of the old. If that is the case, great.

Just for the record: I think I am still the largest donator here. I am NOT the guy Carrot is quoting in his post.

I do have a question for the dev team. Most notably EirrMod: What would it take from the community, to motivate you to spend more time on the mod and get the war map implemented sooner?
You do not get paid for this, so it is a labor of love. We can show you the love, but we need to know what it is first  Wink
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