PE non-doctrinal anti-tank capabilities.

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[sheffer]

if u going for some specific docs as se u loosing alot of at. for example i got flammen grens + support car + barrage and strom tactics. awesome against any inf, stationaty doctrines (ab, rngers, support spam). i removed 50mm and replace them with 5 shreks - only lv spam and pershings + cali can counter that (armor doc). any random single shermans and crocs cant do anything. u can be really effective only with focusing on some tactic, trying to get at against pershings and inf against rangers in the same time = fail, because good players usually focus on 2-3 units from their docs.
teamplay all what u need. and get a "plan b" - for my panther its clearing atgs with barages and grens and hunting unsupported tanks. panther + shrek > pershing.
marder + 2 shreks + stormgrens > rifles + sherman + m8 + atg
etc

[Artekas]

I would say there's a balance issue if my only solution against armour doc players is to rely on teammates. While this game is certainly team-based, most people don't work well as a team and no matter how much I ask for AT support whenever I see something scary like a Churchill or god forbid a Churchill Crocodile almost nobody actually sends any. And are we supposed to automatically lose if we're both SE against an armour player?

[sheffer]

And are we supposed to automatically lose if we're both SE against an armour player?

i think EiRR is all about companies and countercompanies, so yes.

[Artekas]

Fantastic, I'll just delete my SE company because it's automatically guaranteed to lose against two out of five potential enemy companies, and not guaranteed to win against any!

[TheLastArmada]

No your not automatically supposed to loose against an armoured player, but youve surely handicapped yourselves as both playing PE, and both being the same doctrine Scorched Earth
Pe are the most mobile faction in the game, with fragile units
their AT option have long ranges and abilites to give them longer range, quicker firing or to slow the enemy vechle down
Also AFAIK most PE units have buff against churchills especially marders, but im sure this goes both ways

[Smokaz]

Your summary is nice, but the secret is to know what AT to deploy against certain units.

Churchills = Marders, locked down. Marder receives more damage from churchill than other sources but its not a good exchange for the churchill if the engagement starts at long range.
Pershings = tough one for sure. Previously the upgunned hotchkiss, has been nerfed.
Light vehicles: Imo, the 50mm HT is better against these than the marder. You can have more support, and the problem is usually not penetrating them, but hitting and responding to their mobility. The exceptions are the british staghound and the stuart, which if im not wrong have the damage bonus against the halftrack armor.
Shermans/cromwells = Generally for fighting these guys in the open, the marder and 50mm is good. In cities I would prefer shreks and the infantry ht. The turret rotation of these tanks arent THAT good, inf ht's can annoy them with hit'n run and generally are able to take some punishment versus inf hts.
Cromwells can also be engaged by IST's at short range. Generally ISTs if given the opportunity to hit light vehicles or rear armor.

Once you reach the higher populations, having the pop efficient ATHT around is extremely handy. It's all very finnicky and hard to manage at times, but usually the problems are tied to the player and not the units.

While one churchill easily can take out the marder, you have to consider the cost. Mines and light at halftracks are good against churchills. Just make sure to not hit it from the front with the threadbreak. Magnetic at mines are nice against crocs who like to go close.

Generally you have to play intelligently with your combined arms PE. The spam companies are much easier to manage. Combined arms of americans are just generally stronger than PE's because they can include such powerful multirole units and main battle tanks.


Right now the PE doctrines arent working properly so its a bad time for measuring PE strength.

Though, one point that remains undiscussed really is why all these modiifers agianst PE tracks and marders etc are still in. Their remain from the vcoh and are tied to how teching works there.

[TheLastArmada]

i think arte's gripe is the non doctrinal AT options "sucking"
in that case go doctrinal, the end 

[Artekas]

TheLastArmada: It was a sarcastic response to Sheffer, who said that it would be an automatic lose. As PE, I've also not encountered being the most mobile faction in the game, nor long ranges. The only units with longer range than normal in the entire arsenal are the 50mm AT Halftrack and the Panther. As for mobility, my infantry are just as fast as other infantry, and I can't afford any fast vehicles that might actually qualify as mobile because every little bit of my 1400 fuel is in one hummel, one stuka, and a bunch of anti-tank units. The Marder has to lock down to actually win fights, so it's not really a mobile anti-tank gun.

Smokaz: Slowing a Churchill down does nothing to help actually kill it, because it's not a unit based around mobility. A slow Churchill is not any easier for a locked down Marder to kill, and now you've exceeded the cost of the Churchill with anti-tank units that can't kill it. The Churchill will just drive up and Hull Down, and will win the fight.  Churchills don't just generally drive up to a PaK and its support and expect to win like they do with a Marder and the support. And any tanks of similar cost on the Axis side certainly don't go driving into a 57mm and engage it head on. And in all cases the ATG is cheaper than the tank.

Churchills and Shermans may cost more than a Marder, but they shouldn't be able to charge and win head on. Why? Because a Marder is a dedicated anti-tank unit, a Churchill and Sherman are not. Throwing a second dedicated anti-tank unit in doesn't help unless it's another Marder, at which point you now need to pay more resources invested in anti-tank units to kill anti-infantry tanks. ATGs cost less than mainline medium tanks (and Marders, for that matter) but win against them when they charge head on, and rightfully so.

It doesn't really matter if the doctrines are working properly or not, there are literally zero SE doctrines both now and after the re-work that affect PE's capability for anti-tank. Luftwaffe doesn't have much either, except for a better shrek platform for cheaper and 88s if you go for that t3.

TheLastArmada: When two doctrines don't have enough anti-tank, the solution is not to say "these doctrines are bad, you should just use the one doctrine with good anti-tank".

[Tymathee]

PE I think has really good AT, especially when it comes to quick hitting and ranged AT but they don't have AT that can stand Toe to Toe in most fights.

You have Tank Busters
Marders
50mm
LAT (cripples tanks)
Mines that can be placed very fast (support ht)
very fast at in upgun hotch and tank busters + iht
you have panthers

All of their AT is faster than most AT options out there, you just have to play them differently and also have to play them safely. a lot of their at is hit n run except the panther, so you really have to change ur way of thinking

and btw, doctrinal pe at isn't all that much better, what? the jagdpather and fj tank busters? c'mon...or the 88.

[Artekas]

I'd like to see a Marder or 50mm AT Halftrack try to hit and run with their lack of turret and rotation speed... the Light AT Halftrack doesn't really cripple tanks so much as make them half speed for a little while. The Light AT Halftrack costs more than an anti-tank gun (90 munitions, 60 fuel) even though it has basically no damage output and both of its abilities have been SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed. The Light AT Halftrack was great in vCoH, it was damn cheap at only 260/15, it permanently immobilized vehicles, and focused fire actually made every shot hit. Now it's been made expensive, with the reasons that it might have been expensive made so weak.

By doctrinal I was referring mostly to Tank Hunters buffs, like increased accuracy, penetration, magnetic AT, etc. Not the units. Although, the Luftwaffe gets a shrek on a stronger unit for 15 munitions less and 88s, which is better than nothing.

[AmPM]

I think the biggest issue, is except for 1 choice, all of their AT is negated by cheaper and more plentiful options (ATG spam) that has been a common gaming trend for Allied players.

[winisez]

AMPM has the right of it imo, the problem with PE at is that it is all some sort of armour, therefore it is hit very easily by atg's...where as atg's are not hit by them. It essentially means that all the ATG sniping gripes people had before still apply to PE, while they were fixed for everyone else. The only non armour atg PE has is Tank busters, and lets be honest... a single 3 man shrek team is...not exactly scary....you could have a horde of them...but then its just a blob of shit tbh. single Shreks not in a halftrack are rubbish.

[Artekas]

I noticed in the vCoH --> EiRR changes thread that Marder III accuracy was nerfed from 0.65 to 0.5. Were they scared that AT sniping might go the other way around, when ATGs outrange Marders and already hit almost all of the time, killing much faster?

[TheLastArmada]

I'd like to see a Marder or 50mm AT Halftrack try to hit and run with their lack of turret and rotation speed... the Light AT Halftrack doesn't really cripple tanks so much as make them half speed for a little while. The Light AT Halftrack costs more than an anti-tank gun (90 munitions, 60 fuel) even though it has basically no damage output and both of its abilities have been SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed. The Light AT Halftrack was great in vCoH, it was damn cheap at only 260/15, it permanently immobilized vehicles, and focused fire actually made every shot hit. Now it's been made expensive, with the reasons that it might have been expensive made so weak.

By doctrinal I was referring mostly to Tank Hunters buffs, like increased accuracy, penetration, magnetic AT, etc. Not the units. Although, the Luftwaffe gets a shrek on a stronger unit for 15 munitions less and 88s, which is better than nothing.

6pdrs are 380mp 110mu, how are they cheaper then a LATHT ?

[AmPM]

Yes, thats why it was changed.

[AmPM]

6pdrs are 380mp 110mu, how are they cheaper then a LATHT ?

Unlike the LATHT, they can actually kill something.

Also an upgraded LATHT costs more again.

Let us examine the cost.

6pdr 380mp 110mu; defeats enemy armor

LATHT  255mp 50fu; ineffective vs enemy armor, actually more Anti Infantry...

LATHT w/ Treadbreaker and Repair (to simulate the ability to recrew once) 255mp, 115mu, 50fu

Let's assume you meant the 50mm ATHT 300mp, 110mu, 50fu + repair 20mu.

The 6pdr costs 80mp more, oh noes. But it costs 20mu less, 50fu less, and is recrewable. Leaving you options for more ARMORED vehicles with AT ability + their upgrades.

Should we compare what fuel cost vs munitions cost actually means, or the impact of using both resources in a faction that is already hard pressed to fit a balanced company into its list?

[TheLastArmada]

Ok point made, but honestly players like Multidoc never seem to have a probelm as PE
Perhaps Arte needs to forget his usual playstyle and evolve for PE's ?

[kwiatekkek]

lol
hes Tank Hunters with  jagd
:E

[TheLastArmada]

well then obviously PE needs to be doctrinal to have Decent AT options, otherwise its SE which is more A support option, of LUFT which is kind of a balance of both ?

[Artekas]

Light AT Halftrack is 90 munitions, 60 fuel without repair kit. 20 munition difference does not make up for that 60 fuel when fuel is worth more than munitions. I didn't count manpower because it's a much more abundant resource, but we can do that if you like.

With 8000 mp, 2000 munitions, and 1200 fuel as starting resources, munitions are worth 4 mp each and fuel is worth 6.66 mp each. Total value of Light AT Halftrack is 1014, value of any ATG is 820.

TheLastArmada: Besides 5 games with US and 2 games with Brits, PE is all that I've played in this mod, and all that I played in vCoH too, other than trying out other factions. I seriously doubt playing PE as if I were a different faction is the issue here. Also, by your logic, this game is currently perfectly balanced because some people have no problems. Last point: MultiDoc is a Tankhunters player.

Edit for new post: If US, Brits, and Wehrmacht can have decent AT options and have doctrines to specialize how they like, why can't PE? PE should have decent AT options base, and Tank Hunters should make it great AT options, and the others should be specializations without giving up the ability to fight armour effectively. And if you don't think Brits have decent AT options bring it up in another thread, not here.