PE non-doctrinal anti-tank capabilities.

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[AmPM]

Luft is a balance of shit and fail heaped on top of rancid party whore cum and booze vomit.

SE is all about IA and Minespam with AT behind it.

Tank Hunters has shit AI ability and relies on the Jadg to carry it.

[kwiatekkek]

i play SE
and i  use upgunned  hotchkisses  as my  main  AT
they  chewed up   any  churchils  has  no problems  what so ever  penetratin them .
theyre  fast , have long range , good  acc.
theyre  excellent  for  callie/ priest  huntin, and with  some  support  kill  any  alied armour  there  is

[TheLastArmada]

well lets quit the bitching , wait for the rework and see if PE is still a bucket of custard , Non Doctrinal Ofcourse

[AmPM]

Kwia, you have awesomely stated that the Hotchkiss can take out tanks that do little to no damage and have no support.

Now, try the 2 Hotckiss vs say, an M10 and a 57mm. Or a Sherman/Church/Crom and ATG.

They lose, so hard.

They are only pop effective if you can catch the enemy with no main AT on field, otherwise they get raped.

[Artekas]

TheLastArmada: I have bitched only once in this thread, and it didn't have to do with the balance argument itself, but rather that people were making unconstructive posts. Don't just ignore a debate and start insulting your opponent. That's completely rude and makes you look like a jackass. Not to mention it's such a cheap way out and if everyone took that attitude no debates would get done, and the game would never be changed.

The doctrinal rework is just that, a doctrinal rework. It changes absolutely nothing with PE's base anti-tank capability, or the anti-tank capability of two doctrines.

[bbsmith]

I noticed in the vCoH --> EiRR changes thread that Marder III accuracy was nerfed from 0.65 to 0.5. Were they scared that AT sniping might go the other way around, when ATGs outrange Marders and already hit almost all of the time, killing much faster?

Marders, 50mm HTs, and all other ATGs have 60 range.
A Locked down Marder received -35% received Accuracy, +10% damage, +35% Penetration, -25% Reload.

A Marder has 375 HP
A 57 has 300 HP

At Long Range:
The 57 has a 0.4225% chance of hitting the Marder and do 150 Damage
3 Hits are required to kill the Marder (No 5 Percent)
With a time of 5.3 between Shots

The Marder has a 0.375 chance of hitting the ATG and doing 97.5 Damage.
3 Hits are required to kill the ATG (No 5 Percent)
With a time of 5s between shots

Marder is mobile so it can get the first shot if the 57 is scouted. Everything else is up to chance.
The 57 has a slight accuracy advantage and the Marder is a much bigger scatter target.

[Artekas]

Whoops, for some reason I thought that the Marder had 47.5 range, not 60. My mistake. Still, the 57mm has a significant advantage in that many of its misses will still hit a Marder, whereas the same can not be said for the Marder firing at an ATG.

[brn4meplz]

If your SE. Roadblock + Marder = nigh invincible. I love that combo

[TheLastArmada]

yeh but the 57 is far slower then the marder, the marder does not have a setup time,....

[Artekas]

None of which is relevant in a fight between them, and the Marder already costs significantly more resources than the ATG and has different disadvantages to make up for the fact that it's faster. It also can't relocate as fast because lockdown has a cooldown time.

[bbsmith]

Exactly why is the Marder fighting a ATG 1v1? The Marder is an Anti-Tank vehicle, and the ATG is a immobile weapon, it should have a advantage over the Marder.

[TheLastArmada]

so basically what your saying Arte is you want PE to have the option of buying Pak's ?
Seeing as PE's AT ability being almost exclusivly vechs's shoots them in the foot Vs the allies most numerous AT option the ATG

[brn4meplz]

A Marder 3 VS tanks is a very micro intensive thing. Yeah if you have 2 of them you can just lock them down a ways apart and they will cover eachother. but 1 Marder needs to maintain the range advantage. You usually need to bleed territory and like any other AT you need at least a second piece on field.(Schrek/Fausts/Treadbreaker/ATNades)

[TheLastArmada]

Exactly why is the Marder fighting a ATG 1v1? The Marder is an Anti-Tank vehicle, and the ATG is a immobile weapon, it should have a advantage over the Marder.

+1

[Unkn0wn]

It's also got focus fire but that seems to have been nerfed, as it misses infantry in the open roughly a third of the time speaking from experience.

This is not the case as far as I know.

Without getting into this balance discussion, personally I've never found PE to be anywhere near 'incapable' when it comes to AT. Not even in relation to WM. Yes, the WM is definitely 'easier' to manage because their AT cornerstone is the PAK38. But PE just plays out different because of the lack of support weapons, and is therefore probably a harder faction to get a proper grasp on at first.

Also, now that we know your perceived problem with PE, what are you proposing to resolve this issue?
Give them an ATG? Give SE AT doctrine options? Lower F on certain units? etc etc

Kudos on writing an excellent opening post by the way.


Also, please everyone remember to keep this civil, aight? Just because you don't agree with the OP doesn't mean you have to start insulting the person who wrote it.

[Artekas]

Bob, I never suggested that a Marder III should fight an ATG, but I asked why the Marder accuracy was nerfed and you started giving stats for an ATG vs Marder fight. So, ask yourself? =p We can drop this line of discussion for more important subjects, though.

It's basically impossible to maintain a range advantage with a Marder because they move slowly backwards and every tank in the game except the Jumbo will catch up to them, and even the Jumbo will because it must stop to aim and fire. Also, if it's not locked down, it won't win against basically anything.

Unknown: I didn't think of any changes for them because I made the post under the assumption I was wrong, but nobody has made a convincing argument for me yet, just posts about how awesome things are and to use this strategy and that strategy that's unrelated to balance. And stating blatantly wrong things, like that a Light AT Halftrack + Marder with Lockdown will beat a Churchill (no offense Smokaz!).

However... I wouldn't say give them an ATG, just make the units more cost effective. Right now all AT options barring the Tankbusters share a fuel cost, which really limits the amount you can have. The two primary anti-tank vehicles are also significantly more expensive than their ATG counterparts, while not necessarily being better. Being a vehicle is not purely an advantage, it comes with disadvantages that balance it out. Enemy anti-tank guns are really painful, tanks can kill you in a head on fight without issue, you can't recrew, your firing arc is so tiny...

[MultiDoc]

Ok point made, but honestly players like Multidoc never seem to have a probelm as PE
Perhaps Arte needs to forget his usual playstyle and evolve for PE's ?

lol
hes Tank Hunters with  jagd
:E

As a dedicated PE Tank Hunter player, let me just say a couple of things.

The most "relible" and effective anti tank forces for me right now, is a double shrek squad inside an infHT. And as a last resort (middle/late game) the Jagd.

But in all honesty, the most dedicated Tank hunting doctrine has really laughable anti tank capabilities  

As for some of the things being proposed for anti tank purposes, like double marders or upgunned hotchkisses... well... just count to 5 and you see the big explosions of the hotchkisses being blown by zooks, or RR's, or anything literally  

Bottom line, at least for now, is that for me my only reliable anti tank unit for PE is the Jagd.

P.S: Panthers are out of the question cause there are not enough resources to keep both a Jagd and a panther in an all around efficient company (at least i think so)

[AmPM]

Exactly why is the Marder fighting a ATG 1v1? The Marder is an Anti-Tank vehicle, and the ATG is a immobile weapon, it should have a advantage over the Marder.

Because in real gameplay you find that multiple ATG's can completely shut down PE vehicles, and god forbid the PE player lose one of their MHTs.

Actually, ATG vs vehicle 1v1 comes up quite often.

[AmPM]

Marders, 50mm HTs, and all other ATGs have 60 range.
A Locked down Marder received -35% received Accuracy, +10% damage, +35% Penetration, -25% Reload.

A Marder has 375 HP
A 57 has 300 HP

At Long Range:
The 57 has a 0.4225% chance of hitting the Marder and do 150 Damage
3 Hits are required to kill the Marder (No 5 Percent)
With a time of 5.3 between Shots

The Marder has a 0.375 chance of hitting the ATG and doing 97.5 Damage.
3 Hits are required to kill the ATG (No 5 Percent)
With a time of 5s between shots

Marder is mobile so it can get the first shot if the 57 is scouted. Everything else is up to chance.
The 57 has a slight accuracy advantage and the Marder is a much bigger scatter target.

Bob, did you count in the ATG's low chance of scattering off the large hitbox of the Marder to actually attain a "miss".

That makes a huge difference and is the single reason that Marders behind Roadblocks are awesome.

[bbsmith]

How exactly would you calculate a random variable like that?