PE non-doctrinal anti-tank capabilities.

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[Smokaz]

And as for the doctrines, I'm going to have to repeat what I already posted: It makes a HUGE deal that most of tank hunters is underpowered, nerfed from previous iteration or NOT WORKING when everything ab and infantry and armor for instance is completely working and viable.  Luftwaffe has lots of stuff not working as well - and scorched earth never was predominantly a AT doctrine. This might and should be changed with the next scorched earth.

Dont burn yourself out dude. Go play some allies vs PE and see what other PE players are doing.

The EIRR rabbithole is deep. When you go down there you come out as me, or one of the other freaks displayed in this thread. I would just quit now if I were you.

[Smokaz]

You should ask Nug how to play IST spam backed by 50mm spam. He was good at it

[Artekas]

First of all, thank you for the constructive post, brn.

I see your argument - that while a Marder III won't win, for its cost it inflicts enough damage to be cost effective. However, the problem is - the cheaper anti tank in other factions simply does more damage for less cost. All of the ATGs have better DPS at medium range than the Marder, while being able to take a lot more fire from a tank because of received accuracy modifiers. The Marder can lock down and exceed the DPS of the various ATGs, however now it's lost its mobility and unlike other ATGs it takes damage so much faster because it's easier to hit, both by accuracy modifiers and by scattered misses, and can't be recrewed.

I also just want to make a note about the use of Roadblocks: I've tried to use them a lot but I find them far too impractical. You must secure a position for your Marder and then have 30 seconds of preparation time during which you aren't being attacked. If you want to move your Marder two metres or more then you've got to have another 30 seconds. Most of the situations where I could sit around fortifying my Marder for 30 seconds without being harassed, I'm in an advantageous situation where I'd be better off pushing, or they're doubleteaming a teammate and I need to get my ass over there. In addition, doing damage but not killing things is a quick way to be out-attritioned by repair kits. There are situations where this can come in handy, and I take the opportunity when available, but they're rather rare.

Mysthalin covered the point about munitions/fuel based AT really well.

Mysthalin: I never said the Marder is slow, in fact it's quite fast, but the fact is when reversing tanks are slow. Maybe if it could just keep reversing it might be able to keep range, but it's more than just reversing. It has to accelerate, decelerate, stop, aim, fire every four seconds and no tank in the game is going to be outpaced by this. This tactic also seems very unsound because of shotblockers, and you'd have to do it for a while because the DPS of a mobile Marder is lower than that of an ATG. And finally, giving ground in a game that's got a lot to do with the ground is risky. It's not always easy to take ground back, especially when all of your anti-tank can be kept out of their territory by a simple ATG.

It really sounds impractical and I've never seen anybody do it in vCoH or this mod. If you could provide a replay of it in action I'd like to see it though.

Obviously one anti-tank unit at a time is not the way to go, and I don't think I ever said that. But fuel really limits just how many pieces of AT you can have.

Smokaz, I am probably in the wrong about saying an ATG will kill a Sherman head on while a Marder will not, but it's a matter of fact that ATGs have a higher DPS and survive for longer against tanks, while also being cheaper.

[brn4meplz]

take a lot more fire from a tank

Just as a comparison statement, the Marder takes alot more fire from infantry then an ATG does also. Each is the flip side of a deadly tank killing coin.

Roadblocks will never serve the role of a mobile blocker, it's simply a tool to help you achieve victory. Watch your replays and see how many seconds throughout a match you have Infantry capable of building Roadblocks not building anything. The worst case scenario is that you end up with a 1 man squad and just have him building random roadblocks around you or in behind you(for when you need to fall back -Which will happen)

Mysthalins point of other factions fuel AT options is semi valid. the Marder really is the pinnacle of Fuel based Anti tank. A Marder when integrated into your composition will beat an M10 easily. on a road it cannot be circled easily and it outranges it by 15 units. the Received accuracy helps against the M10 too, unlike the ATG.

Marder against Firefly is an especially disgusting 1 sided fight. but Fireflies are meant to fight scarier things like Panthers or Heavy tanks

The Acceleration on the Marder is pretty bad at 2.5, it's pathing is also pretty dismal(it's a PE thing) We're hoping to address some Marder short comings in doctrine reworks but no promises.

The most troublesome tanks for Marders are Churchills. Simply because they take such abuse, I'm totally in agreement with you on that one.

[Mysthalin]

Reversing tanks are not slow. They achieve the exact same speed as they do going forward. The marder does not need to go into a complete and full stop to fire a round. You can just press the stop button, losing minimal momentum, to fire the round, and then go back into your top speed by giving it further move orders.

3-4 shots will take you 12-18 seconds, and I doubt any tank will continue trying to chase down your marder after taking that kind of damage. You're making it seem harder than it actually is.

I do it all the time myself mate - particularly with my geschutzwaggens in my terror company. Pop a shot - reverse, pop a shot - reverse. And geschutz have a narrower cone and worse turn speeds than the marder! Perhaps you just haven't played versus many top-tier players yet?

And the true problem with churchils vs Marders is the fact Churchil 6 pdr guns deal double damage to marders for some obscure reason, killing them in 3 shots.

[Artekas]

Brn: Couple of important differences between taking fire from inf and taking fire from tanks though. Both are designed to fight tanks, being able to take fire from what they're meant to fight is more integral to survival. Other difference is that it's easier to retreat from inf than tank - the tank deals damage in bursts compared to inf, so if it gets one shot off at max range your Marder is already at a big disadvantage when it goes to fight a tank, whereas if infantry fires at your ATG from max range for 3-4 seconds it isn't all that important. The Marder does have an advantage against mortars and snipers though, but those are both much rarer than infantry/anti-tank weaponry of course. I would much rather have the advantage of being able to take much less damage from a tank for cheaper than to have the advantage of not being vulnerable to snipers and mortars.

Mysthalin: You say you do this all the time, the next time you do it could you just save a replay? When I try to do it the thing does not shoot the moment I press stop regardless of how long I've been backing up for, and it takes time to accelerate again. In fact I've played against your Wehrmacht company once when I was trying US, and I remember your Geschützwagens. I never saw you using them as you say against my teammate's Achilles, although the opportunity presented itself. It's just very hard for me to believe, sorry.

[Unkn0wn]

Removed troll posts, this is the balance forum and the balance forum ruleset is still being enforced.
No random images, no flaming, no realism arguments and no 'pointless'/troll posts.

That is all

[Mysthalin]

I never saw you using them as you say against my teammate's Achilles, although the opportunity presented itself. It's just very hard for me to believe, sorry.

I don't believe your teammate's achiles ever actually engaged the geschutzwaggens in a manner that threathened to circle the geschutz(essentially that they never tried to charge the geschutz down). If it happens to be the game with RoyalHants on your side(only person I can think of to have Achilles tanks), then he started with a Mk. 4 churchil which I defeated in exactly the manner I described. I immediately reversed away from him and began kiting him(admitedly taking a couple of shots before managing to do that, since we ran into each other on the road).

[Artekas]

I don't remember the name of the player but I do know it wasn't RoyalHants. It's just going to my word vs your word on that situation, which won't get us anywhere, so let's get back to discussing more solid things, eh?

One thing I haven't really seen argued for is the Light AT Halftrack. It's priced around the cost of an armoured car with only anti-infantry capability like an armoured car, but on a big cooldown. For 95 munitions you can slow something down, possibly permanently. It's certainly useful, but it is really cost effective? Slowing things down is great for utility but I could just have a 50mm AT Halftrack instead, for less fuel even, which would do significantly more damage.

[brn4meplz]

The LATHT also has Focus Fire which dramatically boosts it's accuracy against infantry targets. It's literally the PE Sniper. it gets that ability standard. If your strictly going to be fighting tanks then yeah a 50mm HT is a safe option but the LATHT provides some very nice flexibility to the PE player for only 3 population. The Treadbreaker will let oyou win a fight and more than likely kill the enemy tank. but again it comes down to range Sight and positioning even with the Treadbreaker assistance.

Also ATG's don't fare too well against most tanks. the exceptions being the M10, the M18, the Firefly, the Panther... and usually the StuG/StuH.

All the other tanks in the game have capable weapons against ATG's, and will kill them remarkably fast(faster then killing a Marder anyway).
Every tank in the game when it closes the distance will never ever again take damage from a solitary ATG. but it's EiR and nothing is ever unsupported so the same applies the the Marder.

The only thing I could make a case for here is Marder vs ATG fights, which are an unfortunate necessity sometimes. Well supported ATG's are a nightmare for any PE player, and if you happen to have Marders on field at the time chances are you'll need to use them, and more then likely lose them. Making it worth it is what counts though.

[Artekas]

It is not literally the PE sniper. It is nowhere NEAR being a sniper. It doesn't have perfect accuracy even with Focus Fire, and it's on a long, long, long cooldown. It can't cloak, harass, kill support teams, or anything really. It shares zero similarities with a sniper. Maybe if it had focus fire always active, and focus fire was made perfectly accurate, and fire rate was decreased, it could be considered a PE sniper. It would still be very unique as a sniper, but a sniper nonetheless. Right now it just has an ability for increased accuracy for every 30 out of 300 seconds, that doesn't make it a sniper.

Also, you didn't address the point of Treadbreaker being a separate ability that costs 95 munitions to slow a vehicle down, at all.

ATGs fare better against the same tanks than Marders do. Both will be killed in 3 hits from basically anything, but the difference is ATGs are much harder to hit.

Why should the most universal unit in any allied company be a nightmare for PE players? That statement is basically just confirming that you think there's an imbalance - a normal gameplay scenario involving a unit of which there are 3-4 of in every allied company is a nightmare to PE, or in other words, completely disadvantageous to PE. My opponent shouldn't have a huge advantage over me just because he can call in a very common unit.

[Mysthalin]

It doesn't have perfect accuracy even with Focus Fire

Neither does a sniper.

Maybe if it had focus fire always active, and focus fire was made perfectly accurate, and fire rate was decreased, it could be considered a PE sniper

Then it would be considered batshit OP, not a PE sniper.


Brn.. ATGs fare excellent versus all tanks. They're made for fighting tanks. In a 1v1 scenario they will lose horribly to any tank - yes, but considering they're 4 popcap the ATG should NEVER be in a 1v1 with a tank.

[Artekas]

Actually Myst, a sniper is perfectly accurate unless he's at short range, and situations where snipers are trying engage at 12 metres or less are rare and generally end with the sniper dead. Oh, and he has a .75 accuracy modifier against garrisoned units. Still, the accuracy is ALMOST perfect, which cannot be said for the Light AT Halftrack with Focus Fire.

[shockcoil]

I don't know what LATHT you're using but mine have near perfect accuracy with focus fire. In fact the only time they really miss is if their projectile is intercepted by a world object.

And PE armour laugh at ATGs. No other faction's vehicles have the same power to flank ATGs or hell even kill them head on in the case of ISTs. American light vehicles come close but paks are inherently less flankable due to being invisible. I would be more worried about rrs and TR zooks unless they're straight up spamming ATGs. But then if they have 5 ATGs on the field they SHOULD be able to rape all your armour or something would be very wrong.

[Mysthalin]

Or if the infantry has a recieved accuracy buff (vet, many doctrinal abilities).
Or if the infantry is moving airborne. Or if it's a moving enemy sniper.
Or if there's smoke.

That's quite a few instances in which the sniper isn't perfectly accurate(firing at a moving sniper being the most important of which, I would say).

The LATHT just has a 0.65 chance of hitting moving enemy infantry if they're at long range. If the infantry is not moving, it's 100 percent, even with veterancy and doctrinal abilities. It'll also fare better at hitting infantry in buildings at long range than the sniper will!

At medium range it will essentially hit anything, even if it's in cover with 0.9 acc vs moving infantry, but ah well - can't be perfect.

That's some pretty good accuracy, to be honest. If you refer to Sniper accuracy as "nearly perfect", then LATHT accuracy is also nearly perfect.

[Artekas]

As I said earlier in the thread, from personal observations the Focus Fire has a hate rate of around 60-70%. This obviously isn't a scientific observation but if it had accuracy like the sniper I wouldn't be seeing misses. And it's obviously not just me because you said yourself that you're seeing misses - a shot that registers as a hit is a hit, and that's the end of the story. No matter what, once the game calculates a hit it can't miss, regardless of what gets in the way. Only exceptions to this are barrage weapons like PIAT and Riflenades, where AFAIK a hit determines that they go to the center of where the target was when they fired.

Also since I forgot to say this in my last post, Mysthalin, I never suggested that those were the changes that should be made to the Light AT Halftrack, just what it would be to make it a sniper. An OP sniper or not, it would still be a sniper then.

Shockcoil, I advise that you reread the arguments related to ATGs because PzIV, Armoured Cars, and PE armour in general were never mentioned.

Edit for Mysthalin's new post: The LATHT having a 0.65 chance to hit a common target moving is a pretty big deal, as opposed to 0.75 chance to hit a rare elite target who is moving. I will admit I forgot about sniper vs moving sniper accuracy modifier, and that's probably the most important of all sniper accuracy modifiers.

[shockcoil]

You said

Why should the most universal unit in any allied company be a nightmare for PE players? That statement is basically just confirming that you think there's an imbalance - a normal gameplay scenario involving a unit of which there are 3-4 of in every allied company is a nightmare to PE, or in other words, completely disadvantageous to PE. My opponent shouldn't have a huge advantage over me just because he can call in a very common unit.

I told you why that's not true.

[Mysthalin]

At long range, mind you. Which is 30-45 metres. Which is a pretty rare range of engagement for a PE player, knowing their rather poor reliance on scouting.

[Artekas]

Shockcoil: No, you didn't. Since you obviously can't be bothered to read the thread, the scenario I presented earlier was that any sort of armour combined with infantry and an ATG is ridiculously hard to break as PE because all of their anti-tank options barring panzershreks are raped by the ATG, while the armour and infantry protect the ATG from infantry and vehicles. Therefore it's hard to gain ground whenever a vehicle+ATG are on the field, and they can easily push you off your territory as well. Brn agreed that this is a nightmare scenario. This is a scenario that happens all the time, and the only counter I've found so far is using artillery to kill the ATG. Otherwise, I have to rely on my opponent making a mistake. If one of the most common scenarios I face has the allied player have an advantage, that's probably a balance issue!

Mysthalin: I don't know about you, but any time I don't keep my Light AT Halftrack behind my lines it dies really fast because it's a fragile little thing with little hp and no armour. I'm not interested in charging into enemy lines with it when I want to use Focus Fire, especially because being at less than 30 metres gives it a great chance to be stickied.

[Mysthalin]

Vehicle + ATG is easily beaten by IHT+Assault gren and double marder. IHT flanks the ATG and there's no way the sherman will kill the IHT in time. Then the marders can move in and get their free kill.