PE non-doctrinal anti-tank capabilities.

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[Artekas]

I never said anything should be uncounterable, and that was my point. I said that your tactic would work, just that it's not as easy as you were saying it was. The way you were saying it made it sound like it was an end-all solution to that unit composition.

It has nothing to do with using your Hotchkiss as anti-infantry, rather that you don't have any infantry of your own if you decide to get anti-tank. If you decide not to get anti-tank, have fun losing your Hotchkiss to the Sherman/M10/Churchill/Whatever. If it's in a situation late enough in the game to have dual Stukas, infantry, and anti-tank, then it's a moot point because the enemy could have a number of his own things, and the situation's expanded way too far for theorycrafting to be reasonable.

Brn: The problem is not sustaining losses, but rather that you're just going to take more damage than you caused and lose the fight at the same time, losing out on both attrition and territory.

[shockcoil]

Amen to what brn said

I'm not going to bother explaining anymore as our arguments are all there and you're just denying them without reason now. Suffice it to say me and Mysthalin aren't just blowing hot air. We have actually gone and successfully done everything we have described over the course of over 100 games combined with our HT spam PE companies. ATGs DO die in less than 5 seconds to assaults aboard IHTs and even faster to P4 ISTs. Ask anyone who has played with or against us.

[Artekas]

And now you're back to what we saw earlier in the thread, ie an absolutely non-constructive post that was made for no reason other than to say "I'm right and you're wrong".

Speaking of which, I'm glad this thread did in fact improve and most people started actually debating.

[AmPM]

This whole topic is so far off the rails right now.

Anyway, the original argument is that other factions AT is more efficient, which it is. You can't argue that successfully.

PE do have it rough when it comes to AT countering AT. All of their AT units are vulnerable to not only enemy armor and infantry, but also very weak vs enemy mainline AT assets as well.

HT spam companies work, on the same principal any spam works, you slowly erode the enemies counters to it. Good job, such an amazing tactics. Its exactly the same as M10/M18 spam, US Infantry spam, AB spam, etc. You just spam till they cant counter that unit anymore and you win.

However, this does not mean PE needs their AT to be as efficient as other factions, it could be that their AI is so efficient that they need less of it, or that when combined their units form into Voltron.

All of this is conjecture though since currently the vast majority of their doctrines do not work...

[Spartan_Marine88]

I never said anything should be uncounterable, and that was my point. I said that your tactic would work, just that it's not as easy as you were saying it was.

And thats alot of the issue, your viewing these events with very inexperienced eyes. To you its alot harder then it seems.

And if the game was easy it wouldn't be worth playing. Its the reason this mod is not VCOH, we have moved into the realm of brains over brawn.

[shockcoil]

we have moved into the realm of brains over brawn.

OOOOO Lai would not be happy to hear you say that

[Artekas]

However, this does not mean PE needs their AT to be as efficient as other factions, it could be that their AI is so efficient that they need less of it, or that when combined their units form into Voltron.

I'm not so sure about this, it doesn't really matter how good panzergrenadiers and assaultgrenadiers and PzIVs and armoured cars and scout cars and so on are when a Sherman kills all of those and you can't do much about it because your AT is inefficient.

[AmPM]

And thats alot of the issue, your viewing these events with very inexperienced eyes. To you its alot harder then it seems.

And if the game was easy it wouldn't be worth playing. Its the reason this mod is not VCOH, we have moved into the realm of brains over brawn.

This is a LIE.

Tank Reapers, AB, Churchill Spam, M10/M18 Spam, IA Spam, Assault Spam; just to name a few. Require almost no ability to actually play.

[AmPM]

I'm not so sure about this, it doesn't really matter how good panzergrenadiers and assaultgrenadiers and PzIVs and armoured cars and scout cars and so on are when a Sherman kills all of those and you can't do much about it because your AT is inefficient.

It does, think of it this way. If your AI is highly efficient, you need fewer AI units on field. This allows you to field extra AT.

[Artekas]

Well, two problems with that: the main anti-tank gun already costs more pop than others, and much more importantly both anti-tank guns are inefficient so that you'll lose by attrition even if you win individual fights. Population has no effect on attrition, while inefficient units do. You might attrition their infantry better but it's a moot point when their tanks out-attrition your AT and then you lose because you have a bunch of anti-infantry that can't hurt the target.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Well, two problems with that: the main anti-tank gun already costs more pop than others, and much more important both anti-tank guns are inefficient so that you'll lose by attrition even if you win individual fights. Population has no effect on attrition, while inefficient units do. You might attrition their infantry better but it's a moot point when their tanks out-attrition your AT and then you lose because you have a bunch of infantry that can't hurt the target.

More and more, its seeming like you have had a few bad games. We anticipate that most new players have 20 losses before there first win. 50 before your no longer a complete noob. This may be hard to accept but there is a steep learning curve to this game.

PE is a very hard faction to master, and the fact that your very new makes it seem rediculously UP

[Artekas]

It's not hard to accept and this still doesn't bear relevance to the argument. I know for a fact you can debate, so stop with the ad hominem and just debate.

ps I also never suggested that PE is ridiculously UP. My suggestions were simply to reduce the cost of the Marder by a bit, to say 100-120 fuel, or whatever was more appropriate, and to make the 50mm AT Halftrack no longer cost fuel and reduce the muni cost a bit while increasing the mp cost, so that PE has both munitions and fuel based AT like every other faction and to account for the fact that a 50mm AT Halftrack with a repair kit is 135 munitions, which is more than a PaK which it shares the same gun with. It obviously has the mobility advantage over a PaK but at the same time has no ambush and is vulnerable to enemy AT to counterbalance that, so it shouldn't be priced more expensive than a PaK.

And also re-adjust the light at halftrack, because nobody has provided an argument for why slowing down a vehicle down should cost 95 munitions. Or why a fragile vehicle with a gun that is only useful for every 30 out of 300 seconds should have a cost of 255 mp 60 fu.

[AmPM]

Mostly, your feeling of PE problems is mostly due to the over abundance of AT in the metagame currently.

All allied faction have access to decent hand held AT, on top of that they still have ATGs, M10s and Shermans to harass your support.

Its not that PE are broken, its that for whatever reason the Dev's felt that every Allied faction need handheld AT. So not only can they sticky/button, but they can zook/RR/Boys your shit, and still have all their fuel into Armored units.

[MultiDoc]

Its not that PE are broken, its that for whatever reason the Dev's felt that every Allied faction need handheld AT. So not only can they sticky/button, but they can zook/RR/Boys your shit, and still have all their fuel into Armored units.

+1

 

[Smokaz]

All the axis factions have handheld AT too.

[Spartan_Marine88]

All the axis factions have handheld AT too.

Shreks are amazing against tanks, and those that don't have em get fausts

[AmPM]

Yes, but the factions were not balanced around that....

PE in particular is destroyed by the AT abundance.

[Smokaz]

I've been working towards changes to the fundamentals of PE for a long time. Hear me out.


AMPM's analysis is kinda meh.

PE in general is not destroyed easily, it's just that it's too easy to combine mass AT with anti-soldier armor weapons. Some gimmicks combinations are too powerful against PE specificly.

That's the combination which PE doesn't have a response to:

The lack of a counter to this boils down to a few things:

- No infantry based supression or AT gun
- To a lesser extent the lack of a mortar and a sniper
- No regular high health normal armor type infantry to replace their circumstancial paper/scissor no rock soldier
armor.
- No own version or response to mortar smoke-based tactics. They just dont have anything that can do something inside smoke, outside of a very narrow doctrine choice. The addition of riflegrenades was something I pushed hard for because I see the lack of non-doctrinal ballistic/smoke effetive weapon as a huge problem for PE in eirr.
- Not primarily championed by me, but the inclusion of a decent 40 range medium tank (ist upgun?) would give PE a expanded option which players sorely have asked for.

And a lot of the AT on infantry are very good against PE anti infantry tank/vehicle solutions which operate at close range (mp44 inf ht's, IST, etc).

If you look at the other factions - they have ways to do this. Brits can add in some very powerful infantry-based support teams, and wehr and americans of course have their stuff. Wehr can switch between flamer vulnerable and flame resistant infantry (kch vs grens), the american elite infantry doctrines can switch between rifles and rangers/ab which share the same qualities. Both these feel more vulnerable to flames than rifles do, and americans can add engineers as well to flame back.

- Soldier armor rework. The most recent version of this was suggesting a new non-doctrinal infantry for PE. In OMG they introduced 5 man squads of elite armor with 60 health or so, which completely expanded the allied scope of strategies neede to beat PE. Not reacted upon.
- Complete soldier armor rework (removing soldier armor, adding more health). Suggested multiple times.
- The rework of base PE units. Something akrandas working on a while back, basically increasing the mirroring of the factions. While his way of doing it was overkill it would have had a lot of improvements for the scope of gimmicks that you can use against PE now.
- Reworking of fallschirmjagers: They are the only "drafted" or prototype elite infantry PE has. These guys should be brought up to Ranger and Airborne level. Some people don't like rangers (like mysthalin) but a majority of good players have for a long time used rangers heavily and especially with the tank reaper TH they become AT masters.

Basically options have been laid out. But it's not seen as a problem I guess. Leading opinions in the mod might prefer that PE remains unique in their way, where they are not really suited for static gameplay or fighting a broad amount of company builds.

[Unkn0wn]

While I welcome that contribution, it should really be in a separate thread Smokaz

[Smokaz]

This thread offtopiced into the direction "PE sucks" and thats what she wrote.