So North Korea

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[brn4meplz]

North Korea is unstable enough to use the Nuclear option. I don;t see any other nation on earth retaliating in kind against North Korea.

I'm sure both the United States and CHina have contingencies for invading North Korea in the event of war on the Korean Peninsula and Nuclear weapons potentially being launched by Pyongyang or falling into the hands of Militaristic extremists.

I have a vested interest in in following developments in potential war zones around the globe so I keep track of whats happening where.

[TheWindCriesMary]

 Lol Brn, I'm glad you read the article I posted - but it is a bit transparent when you copy your arguments word for word from it. That demonstrates you really didn't know anything about this issue until after you posted in this thread.

 Also, the points you copied from that article are all clear - but your purpose in copying them is not. Not one of them supports the contention that NK and China are not allies.

 1. The huge trade deficit that China knowingly indulges. I'm not sure if you understand what it means when China exports 2 billion dollars to NK and NK only exports 750 in return.

 I think you think that means China is making a profit, but it actually means China is eating a 1.25 billion dollar loss in order to support it's buddy. This is essentially a financial subsidy that China gives to the NK.

 If I am mistaken, and you were aware that this is the case, then this fact STILL contradicts what you are trying to argue.


 2. China has become more receptive to curbing NK's nuclear ambitions. The key word is MORE receptive. And you can stack up the times China has vetoed tough reactions to NK's actions (attacks, nuclear tests etc.) against the times it has agreed to even the most bare of penalties and have a disparity of 20 to 1. That is an ally.

 3. No one has said China controls NK.

4. You don't have any evidence that China would not go to war over North Korea. There are also thousands of more variables than "go to war" or "don't go to war". Financial, military, and arms support as well as the allowance of Chinese nationals to fight independantly in NK armies (as was largely the case in the Korean War) all constitute wartime endorsements. These are all very possible in the current asian Climate.

 Not to mention the fact that the catalyst of any future war with North Korea would greatly impact CHina's involvement. Throwing out a blanket statement like "China would not go to war over North Korea", especially with such an absent grasp of the geopolitical dynamic of the area, is completely dangerous.

 4. Chinese interests with North Korea are a 3 dimensional chess game under water. It will take a lot more awareness of what is, and has been going on there in the past 30 years to come up with an accurate observation. A blanket statement of x+y = Chinese interests belies a very basic obliviousness.


 You didn't know China and NK were allies. You jumped into this discussion without that most important piece of information. I don't know much about Russian/Iraqi relationships, so I don't jump into discussions about that throwing around bold statements, contradicting common knowledge, and generally making stuff up. When it comes to Korean relationships though, I am close follower of each development and have been for many years.

 It takes more than skimming an article half way into the fact.


 -Wind

 

[TheWindCriesMary]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-11-22-china-north-korea-alliance_N.htm

The defense chiefs of North Korea and China reaffirmed pledges to strengthen their nations' 60-year-old alliance, North Korean state media reported Monday, amid renewed attempts to draw the country back to disarmament talks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11818005

There was more condemnation of North Korea from Russia, EU and the UK, although China - the North's main ally - refused to apportion blame.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11097/chinanorth_korea_relationship.html

China is North Korea's most important ally

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM0RK20101123

The impoverished and isolated North depends heavily on its only major ally for economic and diplomatic support and its leader Kim Jong-il has visited China twice this year, in part to gain backing for the anointment of his son to eventually take over the family dynasty.

China's tight bond with North Korea faced mounting pressure with the arrival on Tuesday of a U.S. envoy as Washington urges Beijing to use its influence over Pyongyang to curb its nuclear weapons ambitions.

http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2010/11/24/north-korean-attack-how-will-china-react/

Besides being Pyongyang’s only ally of consequence, Beijing has a vested interest in supporting the North Korean regime

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-05-26/china-may-shield-north-korea-as-lee-clinton-seek-action-over-ship-sinking.html

South Korea expects China to maintain a “strategic ambiguity” over whether its ally sank the 1,200-ton Cheonan

 You cannot argue that these two countries are not allies. At best you can surrender to the contemporary conclusion that China is growing more concerned about their wayward ally, which is true, but pretending they are not allies is tantamount to throwing your credibility out a window.

 If you choose to cling to the sinking ship (no pun intended) that is your original post, though, I defy you to find me ONE journalistic or academic source which claims the two countries are NOT allies. Until then this is your personal opinion, and not fact or even mildly accurate reading of the situation.

-Wind

[brn4meplz]

China eats the Deficit with North Korea because it suits them. In return they get lessened trade fees with North Korea, more raw material exports, and their Corporations are setting up office in North Korea. Thats economics.
Shit the Palestinians did $2 Billion of trade with Israel in 2004 too. Are they Allies? Shit no.

The situation of having North Korea exist where it does is satisfactory to China right now. Thats it. China is obliged to defend North Korea against unprovoked aggression I know where that lines from because it's a personal hobby of mine.

Like I said I follow this shit closely.

Again I'll say it, the situation exists because it works satisfactorily. However, you can clearly see a degradation of relations over the last half decade. Aside from what I've already stated China has no reason to side with North Korea in armed conflict. It just isn't profitable. They would like to at all costs AVOID armed conflict but so would everyone else. In the event of Armed conflict do I think Chinese nationals would join North Korea, yeah I think they would(shit I'd guarantee it) and I'm sure China would sell North Korea Armament and ammunition. The profit gleaned from that is hardly worth what they'd be losing in the event of a Korean peninsular war.


In regard to your new post. Thats a Media erm because it's easy to understand. North Korea relies on China. China doesn't rely on North Korea.

I've been asked by 3 Separate people to not feed the troll. So I'll leave it at When push comes to shove China won't go to war over North Korea, and as such they are not Allies.

[Unkn0wn]

Now you guys are just going to argue semantics, no point really.

P.S As wind so cleverly pointed out
http://www.marxists.org/subject/china/documents/china_dprk.htm

This agreement, which is still in effect today, means they are allies, at least on paper anyway.
(Whether that means China would follow on its commitments in this treaty is a whole different debate that we will not be having here)