Luft 88

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[smurfORnot]

give it Tiger splash against inf 

[Heartmann]

Carrot u must be kidding me??? Helath kits ARE EPIC!

Heal out well yea more than 3 rifle squads firing at them, and deffo 1 ranger squad WITH Thompson! Its awesome dude!

The fjs with the increased health kits is great! im not getting the ab armour, im getting the evasive manoeuvres, so i can use the ambush bonus more frequent, since it does A LOT! First strike is what its al about with fjs! Second, sprint works vs mgs and shit dude, If im not mistaken when used they received less suppression right? so they can get out of those situations, but yea single vet or no vet fjs are a hassle! Should be a doc so they get sprint from vet 0! tbh!

[Illegal_Carrot]

I never said anything about health kits. And while I'm sure they're nice enough, keep in mind that they're a T3 unlock that has to then be purchased by individual squads. Couple that with the fact that you're mentioning a T3 selection in combination with a T3 unlock to be most effective, and that means health kits actually play a very small role in FJ survivability, or the overall balance of the doctrine.

[brn4meplz]

Medkits on FSJ are a global upgrade, once you get it on a squad any squad can use them on field.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Medkits on FSJ are a global upgrade, once you get it on a squad any squad can use them on field.

Wow, that's a bit wonky, but still pretty cool.
But it's still a T3 unlock that works best with a T3 selection. Nice(er than I thought of it before), but still not that game-changing.

And if someone takes the T3 Tankbuster FJs, they're very unlikely to also take the T3 medkits, making it even more of a non-issue in this discussion.

My point still stands that FJs are not suited for main-line AT duty (which having two Schrecks forces them into), nor are they tough enough to satisfactorily handle 250+Mu. How many Luft players are going to have to agree with that sentiment before it gets a revision? And the 88 certainly isn't worth a T3 unlock on its own.

Some closing thoughts: Why is the 88 and Stuka a T2 for Def, but an 88 and FJs are a T3 for Luft? And why do AB get both AB and AB Rifles in a T1, when Luft only gets FJs as a T1 and AT Fjs as a T3. Makes very little sense, and is very inappropriate.

[Heartmann]

ITS REALLY GAME CHANGING DUDE!!!

I can out gun 3-4 rifles with 1 FJS!!!! You realize how Game changing that shit is!!!

[smurfORnot]

yep,it's rly crazy how much your falls are improved with medikits,best unlock u can get!

[Illegal_Carrot]

ITS REALLY GAME CHANGING DUDE!!!

I can out gun 3-4 rifles with 1 FJS!!!! You realize how Game changing that shit is!!!

That's nice and all, but it has near nothing to do with FJ Tankbusters.

Which are clearly so fuckin awesome.

[brn4meplz]

Veterancy is hardly a measure of Awesome.

all my Panzer grens are Awesome, all my Doctrine P4 IST's are awesome, yet their vet is almost nil across the board.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Veterancy is hardly a measure of Awesome.

Yes it is. Grens keeps vet, FJs keep vet, Storms keep vet. Airborne (of both varieties) keep vet, and so do Commando PIATs. Similar units filling similar roles all keep vet.
The problem isn't that they aren't keeping vet, it's that no one is taking them in the first place. Only four FJ TBs exist in the entire mod, belonging to only three different players. Not a good sign of a unit being at all worthwhile.

[AmPM]

And there are 0 PE 88's in the mod.

[Illegal_Carrot]

And there are 0 PE 88's in the mod.

Well, seeing as FJ TBs are near useless, no one's willing to use an entire T3 to unlock just the 88. I don't blame them.

[smurfORnot]

well,smokaz is enjoing his 88...

there are also 0 flakwierling's,you only see them used now and then...rarely...tried it,didnt like it...

[Illegal_Carrot]

Still eagerly awaiting news from the dev team that they're going to  listen to the community and reduce FJ TBs cost, while making the 88 more appealing.

And is there a reason the Luft 88 lost it's ability to provide green cover to its crew, or was that another last minute, unannounced, because-Bob-said-so change?

[EliteGren]

The PE 88 has a better crew than the Wehrmacht one. It provides halftrack cover aswell as the crew having more HP. The removed shields are just for flair

[Illegal_Carrot]

The Luft doctrine just says "weaker 88 with no shield." Might want to mention the HT armor somewhere.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Responding to what Smokaz said in another thread:

It's still a big issue seeing as PE lack the variety of AT options that other factions have.

You're saying that to make them effective, I have to take a T4 selection. Others are saying you have to take medkits, a T3 unlock.
Firstly, a unit that is only effective in combination with other abilities is a bad unit; poorly designed and allows for no variation. Second, even if I did take these people's advice, that still forces me to go a certain T4 selection, and a certain T3 unlock, not to mention the fact that FJ TBs are already a T3 unlock on their own.

And if you want to get into doctrine selections, what about Def Grens which can take dual Schrecks for only 220MU, get similar accuracy bonuses through their own doctrine selections, have more HP than FJs & are nearly untouchable with Defensive Positions + Fatherland Defense, and have access to medkits without having to take a T3 unlock and cost fewer of every resource than FJs (including Pool).

Or Stormtroopers who get cloak + medkits without a T3 unlock/T4 selection, are even tougher than Grens, get their own nice doctrinal buffs, and get Elite Armor as a T4.

Also, my point that FJ TBs are too fragile to reliably handle 250MU worth of equipment remains unrefuted, as does pretty much every other point I've brought up.

[Smokaz]

Sigh.

Soldier armor vs higher health infantry armor, the eternal discussion.

I've had it slapped in my face over and over again that soldier armor is super good and awesome by the coders no matter how many times I've argued against it. Go harass Bob about this, he deserves it. That's something I've personally given up. He firmly believes that this is alpha and omega of all armor types.

So 1: Your impression of the balance between soldier armor + fsj ambush vs stormtrooper sheer health + cloak is in minority.

From a strategic point of view, If I had airborne armor (T3) AT infantry and soldier armor AT infantry both available, I do however have the flexibility of being able to choose my on-foot AT infantry depending on what weapons I am facing the most. An excess of bars and brens mean I would be better off going with tank busters on foot. So its more flexible than having grens only.

You factor in officers as a probable source of buff for grenadiers.

I'll agree to this as long as you take in the possiblity of a muni HT (not more expensive or pop intense) for tank busters and fallschirmjagers giving considerable buffs. I'll have to look up the RGDs to see what it precisely is atm, perhaps someone else knows by memory and will post.

But I do know that across the board the mun ht has been tuned to work correctly with PE weapons. They will reduce reload and cooldown on shreks, kar98, g43s etc. They SHOULD be working like this anywhow, there's no post about it specificly not affecting shreks.

In cover these fsj shreks with a mun ht should be not that far from the Top T4 in accuracy and fire faster than any defensive solution, at the very least they should be very close to their level in general.

They also have strengths associated with PE - that defensive or wehr can't replicate, primarily the infantry halftrack and the threadbreaker.

2. So no, defensive doesn't have a significant - if at all lead - on the accuracy and offense of it's panzershreks.

So you're actually just as short as ever with your "FSJ TB suck" argument trying to say that defensive shrekers turn out so much better. Your pretty dumb too: "Firstly, a unit that is only effective in combination with other abilities is a bad unit" yet you raise this shenanigans about officer + grens. So grens are only good in combinations with other units, in this case, the officer? We both know they aren't, your "rule" of 'only effective in combination' falls short here. Yet at the same time we all know paks and 57mms are great at their role, but nobody expects them to hunt down and kill tigers and sherman on their own, alone. Again your rule falls short. 57mms aren't bad because they can't do everything on their own.

As for FSJ in general they are balanced around the belief of soldier armor and ambush being strong abilities, you may say that it's not but that's what leading heads think and the conclusion they rest the state of these units on.

If you are under the impression - that infantry AT should be smashing tanks just by the sheer power of their investment (250, 300 munis) - and independant of how they are played - and the degree that the play conforms to the intention of how they are "meant" to be played in game (storm cloak, airborne hit'n run, FSJ ambush) you have learnt so little about this game that you should go back play some CPU on scheldt before you attempt to address the intricacies of EIRR further.

[spinn72]

If Falls are the backbone of your army, which they are for most Luft players, then these little guys will fit in perfectly. It seems that no matter what tier tree you go up, FSJ TB's will be incredibly useful, whether they act like storms with cloak benefits, Airborne replicas with AB armour and more HP and speed, or more acc, less recieved dmg and increased penetration. I guess if you pay 120mu for a one shrek squad, 250 for 2 shreks on FSJ inf seems viable.

That's my opinion at least, I'll definitely be trying it out.

[Demon767]

Id say trust what smokaz says. he does know what hes talking bout most of time and puts alot of effort researching his own arguments.