What do the Allies have that's better than the Axis?

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[Mysthalin]

All allied stuff is cheaper and better than the axis equivilents.

Tru story.

[Malgoroth]

Tigers do not school a Pershing unless it's optimal game conditions. It's usually the other way around.

KTs... Why would you ever match a Pershing one on one with a KT? KTs are slow worthless shit anyway.

I usually see Pershings beat the ever-loving fuck out of Panthers too. However, I would much rather face a persh than a fuckin' callie any day.

[NightRain]

Zook doesnt cost 120 mun for one that's for certain. Actually it costs 55 mun with a tier 3 unlock and you get it for every rofl you want. Its 80 muns for rangers and you get a pair of 'em too.

Tiger does pwn Pershing any day, it has more HP and that gives its the advantage.

[nugnugx]

All allied stuff is cheaper and better than the axis equivilents.

Tru story.

not all , but mostly yes.

In EIR :

cheap and mass > quality .

In the end the one who out-attritioned another one wins.

[Illegal_Carrot]

except that the most broken is the terror rocket strike.

You mean Firestorm? It's nice, but not broken. I'd still take a T2 Strafe over a T3 Firestorm anyways. And seeing as how Firestorm can't even touch heavier vehicles, I don't see how it's all that broken.

of course because most axis stuff doesn't need abilities to make it worth while.

This make me lol.
What about Storm or PaK Cloak, Falls Ambush, Assault Nades, Medkits, the entire LATHT, etc etc. Axis would be nothing without abilities. The difference is Axis need their special abilities and combat multipliers to even function, while Allies get nice toys that make them better than they already are.

sorry to say but hotchkiss stukas rape. and there also non-doctrinal

Not really. They're only nice if you have multiples of them, and then you've got 16+ pop on the field (plus huge resource costs) that can only fire four rockets each every few minutes. I'd much rather take my Howi or a 25 Lbr; anyone would.

Zook<Shrek

One-on-one maybe, but cost-for-cost the Zook reigns supreme. Being able to afford three Zooks for every one Schreck, as well as the fact that they're mounted on a superior platform means Zooks all the way, baby.

Firefly only when the dumbass axis runs from the firefly and helps me out, if he charges with even a p4 its over for the ff.

If you supported your Firefly at all this would not be the case. He'd charge right into a 6 Lbr, a PIAT ambush, a Bren Button, etc. Even in a vacuum the FF wins that engagement due to longer range + Tank Commander upgrade.

Pershing is Panther equivalent

You make me lol so much, Spartan. Pershing = Panther? I don't think so.
The Panther is really just a tough Firefly; better armor, more health (higher cost!). It's got about a 50% chance to snipe one single man, at best, and about a 15% chance at worst. The Pershing will own a Panther 1v1, and gib entire squads. The Pershing is more like a Tiger than anything else. Even then, the Tiger doesn't 'school' a Pershing. Usually it's the opposite.

[Mysthalin]

I'd personally take firestorm over the strafe, frankly because of it being much wider and much more capable of killing enemy units than the strafe. But I agree - it's hardly "broken"

Your point about axis needing abilities to function :
He was reffering to the majority of axis stuff not needing abilities to make it worth while : he is right at that. The LMG42 is, for instance, better than either the bren gun upgrade or the BAR - but is cheaper due to the fact that it has neither button nor Suppression fire. Or the Panzershrek being a consistent and (variably) reliable Anti-tank asset. The sticky bomb - the mainline US infantry-AT asset, however, is an ability upgrade, rather than a weapon upgrade. The entire upgrade is an ability, in other terms.

Sure there's the pak cloak and other things - but he does have a point in saying that the majority of axis units don't in fact have "abilities" in-built with their cost that they rely on.

Stuka Hotches are indeed a slight bit underwhelming in singles, but in doubles they can unleash, more or less so - hell. I would take a hotchkiss stuka over a 25 pdr any day - not only because it barrages more often and can move around the battlefield - but because it can help provide direct fire-support with it's rather efficient main gun as well. It being a Stuka as well only makes me stop charging it into ATGs like I would with normal ones.

Assuming the superior platform and 3 zooks for each shrek scenario : you're paying a much higher manpower and pool cost for each of these bazookas(equivilent to 495 MP spent on the 3 zooks as opposed to each of the 240 MP spent on the shreks). Now, manpower is often disregarded as a cost - but in this case the discrepancy in price is rather noticeable).

I agree with you on the firefly and pershing, though. The pershing has the irrefutable advantage of speed versus the Tiger, which allows it to engage in hit and run far more efficiently(albeit engaging in direct confrontation is very hardly so a good idea).

[Mgallun74]

comon carrot.. your being completely unreasonable now.. thats all really biased stuff you posted.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Here's how I see it:
As an Infantry player, you can get four Zooks for 160Mu -- the price of a single Storm Schreck. Or six Zooks for 240Mu, the price of two Schrecks.

The Manpower cost I don't take into consideration. Not because it isn't important, or that the difference isn't noticeable, but because that MP goes more into the platform, has to do with company composition, deals in the metagame, etc.

My point is: I'll always take three to four Zooks over one Schreck, and Rangers over Grens.

comon carrot.. your being completely unreasonable now.. thats all really biased stuff you posted.

How so? I've backed up everything I've said with numbers, descriptions, explanations, etc.

Unlike Spartan who just posted 'Schreck > Zook' without backing up his point, and who posted complete nonsense like 'Perhsing is a Panther equivalent.'

[Mgallun74]

Here's how I see it:
As an Infantry player, you can get four Zooks for 160Mu -- the price of a single Storm Schreck. Or six Zooks for 240Mu, the price of two Schrecks.

The Manpower cost I don't take into consideration. Not because it isn't important, or that the difference isn't noticeable, but because that MP goes more into the platform, has to do with company composition, deals in the metagame, etc.

My point is: I'll always take three to four Zooks over one Schreck, and Rangers over Grens.
How so? I've backed up everything I've said with numbers, descriptions, explanations, etc.

Unlike Spartan who just posted 'Schreck > Zook' without backing up his point, and who posted complete nonsense like 'Perhsing is a Panther equivalent.'

your crazy man, i run a infantry unit, and i know exactly how zooks work..  they bounce alot! they miss alot!  i i had a extremly low health panther survive 5 zook shots in the butt.. try that to any tank with 1 shrek.  Normal zooks are only pretty good in thier basic setting against PE..

when you get TR, then they get pretty OP for the price..

[Artekas]

Schrecks are just as bad about bouncing and missing as Bazookas, more or less. They're a bit better but not three to four times better.

[Illegal_Carrot]

your crazy man, i run a infantry unit, and i know exactly how zooks work..  they bounce alot! they miss alot!  i i had a extremly low health panther survive 5 zook shots in the butt.. try that to any tank with 1 shrek.  Normal zooks are only pretty good in thier basic setting against PE..

when you get TR, then they get pretty OP for the price..

In run Infantry, too, so i know exactly what I'm talking about.
Zooks have kinda low penetration, but it's high enough that a single volley will still do quite a bit of damage, and that Axis tanks are still afraid to come near.
As for accuracy, Zooks and Schreck have almost the same exact base accuracy, and Zooks actually get quite a few accuracy modifiers against Axis armor. In most cases Zooks are actually more accurate than Schrecks.

i i had a extremly low health panther survive 5 zook shots in the butt..

That has nothing to do with Zook vs Schrek, that's a 5% bug.

[Mgallun74]

In run Infantry, too, so i know exactly what I'm talking about.
Zooks have kinda low penetration, but it's high enough that a single volley will still do quite a bit of damage, and that Axis tanks are still afraid to come near.
As for accuracy, Zooks and Schreck have almost the same exact base accuracy, and Zooks actually get quite a few accuracy modifiers against Axis armor. In most cases Zooks are actually more accurate than Schrecks.
That has nothing to do with Zook vs Schrek, that's a 5% bug.

not, it wasnt near 5per.. it was around a 1/4 or less.. all 5 hit and it dropped a tad.. as in, they all bounced.

[Artekas]

So cheap handheld AT bounces off the Axis best armoured vehicle? Who would have thought? Schrecks bounce off of Pershings often too.

[smurfORnot]

from front they might bounce,but from side(even with skirts) they penetrate quite often,not to mention rear...

[Mysthalin]

As an Infantry player, you can get four Zooks for 160Mu -- the price of a single Storm Schreck. Or six Zooks for 240Mu, the price of two Schrecks

Cloak increases the Shrek's effectiveness by roughly 3 times (difference between short range and long range accuracy, so yeah - you pay a premium for stormie shreks).
It is far more reasonable to assume the general price of the panzershrek across the board : which comes to 120 MU/shrek, and the general price of the bazooka : which comes to 80 MU/2 zooks (no reason why this shouldn't be assumed to be 40 MU/zook, as no unit can buy singular zooks).

Now, you'll pay 930 MP 240 MU 18 pop 27 pool for 6x zooks, and 480 MP 240 MU 10 pop 8 pool for 2x shrek.
With equal munitions prices we do see that you gain 3 bazookas for each one panzershrek, but consider the other implications in this.

You pay 93.75% more manpower per 3x bazooka compared to 1 shrek.
You pay 80% more population per 3x bazooka compared to 1 shrek.
You pay a whooping 237.5% more pool value per 3x bazooka compared to 1 shrek.

The main point of value from the tripple bazookas is 3x or 200% more volume(shots fired).

Now, the general stats state that bazookas deal 90 damage/shot, and panzershreks deal 120 damage/shot.

That is 33% percent higher than the bazooka.
I will give the discrepancy of medium ranged accuracy (shrek 0.75, zook 0.6) a weight of 0.33 to make it at least moderately unbiased(I will exclude the shreks better range values of 10 short, 20 medium compared to zook 8 short 17 medium).
So that's a further 8.25% superiority for the panzershrek.

Assuming that the following armours are equivilent :

P4 and Sherman (P4 is assumed to have skirts due to the severe lack of unskirted P4s in the game).
Tiger and Churchil
Panther and Pershing

I take the penetrations of the zook and panzershrek versus their respective targets and calculate the overall penetration/damage modifier ratio of the panzershrek vs Bazooka. I assume Tiger to be worse than the Panther due to the bazooka being better vs the Tiger than vs the Panther.

Calculations are respective to the order, they are calculated as panzershrek pen * panzershrek dmg / bazooka pen * bazooka dmg

0.8779 / 0.33675 * 1.2 = 2.17 equiv to 117% superiority.
0.5292 / 0.1853 * 1.5 *1.35(acc multiplier) = 1.41 equiv to 41% superior
0.4586 / 0.11235 * 1.125 = 3.63 equiv to 262% superiority.

Now, there is no way I can possibly state that tigers and panthers are as common as P4s, or that Churchils and Pershings see more light of day than Shermans do.
I therefore humbly submit the weights of 0.66, 0.17 and 0.17 as rough estimates (meaning that out of 6 tanks, 4 will be P4s/Shermans and 1 will be a Churchil/Tiger and 1 will be a Pershing/Panther) of what could possibly be a logical number of tanks to expect.

With these weights, we come out with the overall superiority in fighting tanks of the panzershrek to 128.73% or 2.2873 modifier.

I however, also denote a 75% superiority of the bazooka in fighting light vehicles in comparison to the shreks frankly due to the fact Panzer Elite will more than likely field a lot more IHTs, 50mm and Marders than the combined light vehicle contingents of both the Brits and the US. It is also merely an estimate, but I think it's a rather fair one(it is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong).

So we get the following :
Zook volume advantage : 3x modifier
Zook vs Light vehis advantage : 1.75x modifier
Schreck damage advantage : 1.33 modifier
Schreck mid-range acc advantage : 1.0825
Schreck anti-tank advantage : 2.2873 modifier

Calculating all this, I get that, on average, in most game situations we can estimate the overall ratio of 3x zook/shrek efficiency at the following :

3*1.75/1.33*1.0825*2.2873 = 1.59

So 3 bazookas, should - by my estimates perform 1.59 times as well as a singular panzershrek in most game cases(or 59% better, if that floats your boat more).

Assuming that manpower and pool value are both worth about 17 percent of "sheer resource value" in comparison of 66 percent of popcap (because pool value only eats your PPs, and manpower may not be all-important, whereas with no popcap you can't even begin to use your units - so I think popcap is about 4 times more important than either manpower or PP costs), we arrive that they are also roughly 0.66*80 + 0.17 *237.5 + 0.17 * 93.75 = 109.1125% more prohibitive to field.

That is  to say, that, essentially - 3x bazookas will come to be about 76 percent as price-efficient to field as a single panzershrek.

This discrepancy is roughly covered by the superiority of the platform (rangers vs grenadiers) and the existence of fire-up as an escape mechanism, at least in my opinion.

So overall - I would assume bazookas and shreks to be roughly equivilent in price-efficiency.

[Mysthalin]

Btw, enjoy the original Mysthalin-kind balance post of massive RGD-crawl. Now complete with weighted means!

[smurfORnot]

u rly have a lot of free time :p

[EliteGren]

Cloak increases the Shrek's effectiveness by roughly 3 times (difference between short range and long range accuracy, so yeah - you pay a premium for stormie shreks).
It is far more reasonable to assume the general price of the panzershrek across the board : which comes to 120 MU/shrek, and the general price of the bazooka : which comes to 80 MU/2 zooks (no reason why this shouldn't be assumed to be 40 MU/zook, as no unit can buy singular zooks).

Now, you'll pay 930 MP 240 MU 18 pop 27 pool for 6x zooks, and 480 MP 240 MU 10 pop 8 pool for 2x shrek.
With equal munitions prices we do see that you gain 3 bazookas for each one panzershrek, but consider the other implications in this.

You pay 93.75% more manpower per 3x bazooka compared to 1 shrek.
You pay 80% more population per 3x bazooka compared to 1 shrek.
You pay a whooping 237.5% more pool value per 3x bazooka compared to 1 shrek.

The main point of value from the tripple bazookas is 3x or 200% more volume(shots fired).

Now, the general stats state that bazookas deal 90 damage/shot, and panzershreks deal 120 damage/shot.

That is 33% percent higher than the bazooka.
I will give the discrepancy of medium ranged accuracy (shrek 0.75, zook 0.6) a weight of 0.33 to make it at least moderately unbiased(I will exclude the shreks better range values of 10 short, 20 medium compared to zook 8 short 17 medium).
So that's a further 8.25% superiority for the panzershrek.

Assuming that the following armours are equivilent :

P4 and Sherman (P4 is assumed to have skirts due to the severe lack of unskirted P4s in the game).
Tiger and Churchil
Panther and Pershing

I take the penetrations of the zook and panzershrek versus their respective targets and calculate the overall penetration/damage modifier ratio of the panzershrek vs Bazooka. I assume Tiger to be worse than the Panther due to the bazooka being better vs the Tiger than vs the Panther.

Calculations are respective to the order, they are calculated as panzershrek pen * panzershrek dmg / bazooka pen * bazooka dmg

0.8779 / 0.33675 * 1.2 = 2.17 equiv to 117% superiority.
0.5292 / 0.1853 * 1.5 *1.35(acc multiplier) = 1.41 equiv to 41% superior
0.4586 / 0.11235 * 1.125 = 3.63 equiv to 262% superiority.

Now, there is no way I can possibly state that tigers and panthers are as common as P4s, or that Churchils and Pershings see more light of day than Shermans do.
I therefore humbly submit the weights of 0.66, 0.17 and 0.17 as rough estimates (meaning that out of 6 tanks, 4 will be P4s/Shermans and 1 will be a Churchil/Tiger and 1 will be a Pershing/Panther) of what could possibly be a logical number of tanks to expect.

With these weights, we come out with the overall superiority in fighting tanks of the panzershrek to 128.73% or 2.2873 modifier.

I however, also denote a 75% superiority of the bazooka in fighting light vehicles in comparison to the shreks frankly due to the fact Panzer Elite will more than likely field a lot more IHTs, 50mm and Marders than the combined light vehicle contingents of both the Brits and the US. It is also merely an estimate, but I think it's a rather fair one(it is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong).

So we get the following :
Zook volume advantage : 3x modifier
Zook vs Light vehis advantage : 1.75x modifier
Schreck damage advantage : 1.33 modifier
Schreck mid-range acc advantage : 1.0825
Schreck anti-tank advantage : 2.2873 modifier

Calculating all this, I get that, on average, in most game situations we can estimate the overall ratio of 3x zook/shrek efficiency at the following :

3*1.75/1.33*1.0825*2.2873 = 1.59

So 3 bazookas, should - by my estimates perform 1.59 times as well as a singular panzershrek in most game cases(or 59% better, if that floats your boat more).

Assuming that manpower and pool value are both worth about 17 percent of "sheer resource value" in comparison of 66 percent of popcap (because pool value only eats your PPs, and manpower may not be all-important, whereas with no popcap you can't even begin to use your units - so I think popcap is about 4 times more important than either manpower or PP costs), we arrive that they are also roughly 0.66*80 + 0.17 *237.5 + 0.17 * 93.75 = 109.1125% more prohibitive to field.

That is  to say, that, essentially - 3x bazookas will come to be about 76 percent as price-efficient to field as a single panzershrek.

This discrepancy is roughly covered by the superiority of the platform (rangers vs grenadiers) and the existence of fire-up as an escape mechanism, at least in my opinion.

So overall - I would assume bazookas and shreks to be roughly equivilent in price-efficiency.

lolwut

[Smokaz]

http://www.incubatix.com/SavedText/891804399text.htm

[Mysthalin]

-2.5 internets to elitegren and smokaz. Bad elitegren and smokaz.