Some thoughts.

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[acker]

Imagine a game where only two types of players existed; "good" players, and "bad" players. That, when two players of equal skill played each other, either player would win 50% of the time. Where, if a "good" player came across a "bad" player, the "good" player would win 9 times out of 10.

Imagine where winning gave 2 points gave -1 point. Where points is a completely arbitrary measurement of satisfaction or pizza or veterancy or whatever.

Now, imagine that no one knew who everyone else was, and that 70% of the existing population was "good", the other 30% being "bad". In the long run, a "bad" player would get -.19 points a game, and a "good" player would get 1.21 points a game.

And every "bad" player would drop out within a week, screwing over newcomer growth for the game.

Adjust the numbers whichever way you'd like. Use variables for all I care. At some critical point, every single newb will eventually abandon the game for something else.

Luckily, EIR is not like a simplified model. Some bad players gain a perverse amount of satisfaction from losing in EIR instead of, say, playing some other game. Games are not completely random because every "good" player in the community knows one other. People don't stack and absolutely crush newbs. So newbs do join EIR at some slow rate. But I don't know many people who'd say that EIR is particularly good at accepting newcomers, at all.

The best advice I’ve seen for a newcomer recently is “don’t feel discouraged when you lose the first twenty games”. That’s awesome advice.

The most obvious solutions;

-Reveal the good players and bad players. This didn't work so well because, apparently, playing with your friends is more fun than actually playing.
-Branding.  Physically mark out some players as people who are occasionally gentle with newbs when on-duty. I think they used to be called “mentors” here. Until they vanished.
-Automatch. The public option of video games that everyone hates because it never works and deprives choice and freedom and eats babies. Plus you might not get to play with your friends.

The absolutely worst decision I could think of to sustain population growth would be to attempt to hide who is good and bad, then add in no automatching whatsoever.


...of course, the War Map's getting added soon. Maybe that'll solve some problems.

[EIRRMod]

Auto-assignment of battles has been on the cards for a long looong time- read previous thread somewhere about it.

[acker]

True. I meant my last sentence/sentence fragment in a non-sarcastic tone. Sorry about that.

[Demon767]

We already have lists of people to watch out for. but with a low pop community. avoiding good players is not a option.

/thread

[nugnugx]

We already have lists of people to watch out for. but with a low pop community. avoiding good players is not a option.

/thread

oh noez , not THE list !

[TheIcelandicManiac]

We already have lists of people to watch out for. but with a low pop community. avoiding good players is not a option.

/thread

post a link?

[Demon767]

im looking now

[ErwinNH]

I'm on the best-looking list. I dunno about my gameplay.


 

[Smokaz]

We had wins and losses display for a while, acker. It caused its own problems. -.-

[TheWindCriesMary]

 The mentors probably dissapeared because it was a completely thankless job that had no incentives - those mentors who actually did their job did it knowing they would get no recognition or reward from the dev/mod team, and that barely even 1 out of every 8 new players they painstakingly talked through the process of getting ready to play EiR would stick around for more than a week.

 I mentored probably close to a hundred new players, and definitely registered double that amount of people on vent, and I didn't even get so much as a reward point. I have a feeling the other mentors were in the same boat. Hell, we didn't even get any access to some kind of secret forum goodies (meanwhile the completely unqualified boneheads in the secret balance forum stumble from one clumsy partisan misstep to another). Granted we never asked for any of these things (that I know of), but you can't really blame people for eventually losing steam after working thanklessly for so long. Why reward what you are already getting people to do for free?

 
 So while I still will take the time to talk a random new player who speaks 4 words of english and refuses to go on vent every now and then, I definitely don't blame anyone for not doing so at this point. There are always going to be more new players who don't speak english/don't understand how to start up a game, and chances are that guy you spent 80 minutes coaching through the steps will never be seen again.

-Wind

[Groundfire]

Wind, reward units didnt even exist before the Campaign. If they did, they were just toys for BoB to play with. Remember all the contests that fell through? haha

Other than that, there was nothing the devs could give you. Aside from a "Thanks," which no one here gets anyways.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Wind, reward units didnt even exist before the Campaign. If they did, they were just toys for BoB to play with. Remember all the contests that fell through? haha

Other than that, there was nothing the devs could give you. Aside from a "Thanks," which no one here gets anyways.

 PP, EXP,  insight into special features? Hell even a "thanks" as you mentioned.  All of these things have always been possible

There is a big difference between being unable to reward people who volunteer their time, and being unwilling and/or not realizing it would probably be a good idea.

 Hell though, I kept doing the job and still do it, but almost all of the mentors have vanished. And you know, given the circumstances you really can't blame them.

 Should they have been doing the job only for rewards? Absolutely not. And they weren't as is evident by the fact that most of them kept at it for as long as they did without any recognition. But from a practical standpoint, you're going to want to make sure the guys working hard for you at least feel appreciated or else they inevitably will lose motivation.

 -Wind

[Groundfire]

Hey, dont get mad at me man, that was before my time. I was still a simple shoutcaster back then.

But I can say that nothing was given because there wasnt really anything to give. After the "test company" fiasco, no one gets buffed companies ever. (unless your BoB testing doctrine abilities)

And there are no insight to special features either. I know because I do them now and it's all in the News reports on the Home pages of the fourms. All that stuff appeared in the content contributors thread before I got to it, and other than that there's nothing else to show because it's all in someone's head and not in a physical state on the fourms.

Also, afaik, no one was contracted to be "mentors." Im sure the intention was you come and go as you please, do it for how ever long you feel like it. I know I wasnt asked to do what I did. I just did it, regardless of any thanks I got.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Hey, dont get mad at me man, that was before my time.

 I don't understand this line. No one is getting mad at you. This isn't even about you, or me, or George Washington for that matter. It's about the mod team (aka the devs). You know, the guys with the power who need to approach their volunteer situation a little more pragmatically. Invest in free labour, and it will pay dividends. Take it for granted and it wont.

As for there being nothing to give, I'll say it again: an absence of means by which recognition/reward can be bestowed is not an excuse for an unwillingness to devise one. Neccessity is the mother of invention. You either see that it is important to reward your volunteers and find a way to do so, or you decide you don't care enough to try.  There are many, many ways to reward people who do a service for you without asking anything in return. You just have to want to reward them or see why it is important in the first place.

 The sad part is this mod's community would be far stronger had those mentors been encouraged to keep at it. Unfortunately we now have 2 or 3 who do, and sparingly at that.

Also, afaik, no one was contracted to be "mentors." Im sure the intention was you come and go as you please, do it for how ever long you feel like it. I know I wasnt asked to do what I did. I just did it, regardless of any thanks I got.

 This is a summary of every mentor EiR has ever had. There is no new information here that reveals anything not already revealed in the initial problem laid out by Acker at the start of this thread.

 The system of no recognition/reward for mentors was a failure because inevitably even the most charitable and patient volunteer is going to lose interest and motivation. So far we still have 1 or 2 foolish souls who still mentor, myself included, but that isn't enough to build the community. Posts like Ackers, and the fact that the newbie retention rate of this mod is an all time low, is proof enough of that.

-Wind

[Spartan_Marine88]

 The system of no recognition/reward for mentors was a failure because inevitably even the most charitable and patient volunteer is going to lose interest and motivation.

-Wind

Yep, but unfortunatly this mod only recognizes the devs, rarely the community that tries to make it a better place

[Groundfire]

Idk, first thing is to realize that up until very recently, the whole team is a flimsy collection of volunteers themselves who also come and go as they wish.

You make it sound as if they're all sitting around some boardroom table and they're not setting aside the appropriate amount of thankyous this quarter.

I guess since im community manager now, dolling out the thank yous is my job.

Thank you for your service Wind. I cant really give you anything because there is really nothing that can be given in game aside from reward units (which i dont have the intelligence to use the SQL to get you some), but you can have a Warmap Beta Test slot if you wish.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Idk, first thing is to realize that up until very recently, the whole team is a flimsy collection of volunteers themselves who also come and go as they wish.

 Absolutely, however there is a critical difference between the mentor team and the mod team. One gets recognition and rewards, and the other does not. I can't even count how many times I've seen members of the mod team replace lost vet in their companies after a battle, or reorganize their doctrine/PP (well before this was something anyone could do). And this is after making companies was outlawed.

 Do I disagree with these things? Actually no I don't. I've argued in defense of the mod's having these powers at their disposal on countless occasions, and I was a strong opponent of the rule that banned them from making "test accounts". Why? Because they work on this mod for free, and some of them put a great deal of time and effort into it (although ironically it was actually some of the least contributive team memners who took advantage of these powers the most).

 This was recognition, and to this day the dev team always is recognized as they rightly should be. The other kinds of volunteers, however, have not been. It's a key clue in why the PR team's productivity fell down to 1%, for example.


 You first tried to make my argument about you, and it wasn't. And now you are trying to make it about me, and it isn't. I don't care about reward units, and I could honestly care less about warmap beta testing. If I wanted a warmap beta spot, I'd have asked for it and gotten one a long time ago.

 What I care about is this mod using it's head when it comes to building a community. You have the guys like EiRMOD working their asses off the build the content, and they do a damn good job, but then you lack the guys who have any kind of clue about how to build up a base of committed volunteers.

 I do what I do, and have done it for over a year, without any recognition or reward. But there is a perfectly good reason why I am all but alone. I think there are perhaps 2 people who have mentored a newbie from start to finish in the last two weeks.

 It's because the other guys wizened up, as they had every right to do so.


 Don't try to make this about me, as if this is all some gambit to get some kind of reward. In fact, I hereby refuse any and all invitations to the warmap beta test. As for reward units, my last company had 4 unused reward points in it because they aren't the least bit useful. But you know what? I bet you a lot of people would have worked hard as mentors to get them. A smart community move would have been to offer them as incentives for mentor work.

 The dev team needs to get proactive with building a community the proper way, and it needs to do it fast or ship out. You know, actually, that's the reward I want. Get them to intelligently build a motivated and appreciated mentor team and I'll be a happy man, so that 2 of us saps don't have to do it all by ourselves.

 Reward enough would be some relief.

 -Wind

[Nevyen]

In allot of ways its the same for the devs current and past.  The got and get sick of the at times thankless and pessimistic nature of the community.  The mentors are not the only ones who have had that experience.

In all things allot can be done better, and groundfire has defiantly upped the PR since he has managed it.

The nature of the small community and thus low player numbers is hard to balance out with a mod that is designed to have progression and as a result some players will be at one point and other at another, through in actual player capability and it gets harder.

I would say that there is complaining and then actually coming to the table with a solution or even an option.  Its very easy to sit on the side lines and say you should do this or you should do that. Additionally this whole venture is based on charity, charity of time, money and in allot of cases patience, maturity and understanding as well restraint.  None of this would exist without charity. So wind is right, no recognition, no reward and more importantly incessant complaints,  comments that attack the people who work on this mod etc will and have in the past make devs lost their interest and their motivation.

So whats the learning's from all this?  Never expect something for what you do when you do it out of your own choice. You will just get a disappointing result.  EIRRMOD does this because he wants to, I'm pretty sure he neither expects nor demands anything for his time.

The decision about 2 years ago to partially fund the mod during its rebuilding time was my own  and at 1st my only satisfaction was to be involved and I expected nothing for my time nor my money as I gave it freely.  Later I lost sight of that and became jaded and annoyed, because all I ever saw was complaints, attacks on the people I was having fun with, so I stepped back and now take a partial interest in the mod.

Anyone who joined the mentor program with an expectation of something joined for the wrong reason.  If you joined as a mentor on the basis of you like helping players out and as a consequence saw an improvement in the player base that's all the thanks your should have expected.  A thank-you, pp's xp or reward units you should never have been expected nor demanded.  Its not a Utopian ideal its life.  If you voulteer you do it becasie you want to and the satisfaction comes from doing it well, someone comes up and says thank-you well thats just an added bonus.

To all the Dev's who have left including myself we left maybe because of life like FL and Ucross or myself as i lost sight of what I wanted from the mod.

I remember what FL told me once, he didn't give a damn if one 2 people played the mod he was doing it for himself and no-one else.

The current Dev are doing a great job right now allot better than the last mob in my opinion.  They are currently following a direction to its conclusion and I think that whats coming is fantastic, maybe there are a couple of people out there with some solutions for the mentor program, people who are purely interested in improving the player base and would be happy with that outcome.  They could even approach the dev as look to join with that role in mind.  

Just have to bear in mind what they want out of it and what they hope to add to the mod if they where willing to run it and also devise a way to reward people and lead the initiative then all the better but it takes more than words to effect change.

      

[TheWindCriesMary]

 I agree with many of your points Nevyen, but this in particular is important:

  A thank-you, pp's xp or reward units you should never have been expected nor demanded.  Its not a Utopian ideal its life.  If you voulteer you do it becasie you want to and the satisfaction comes from doing it well, someone comes up and says thank-you well thats just an added bonus.

 Ideally, this is what should always be the case.

 Realistically, however, it is why we have 1 or two mentors left, and no PR team aside from Groundfire (who, in all fairness, does more than anyone else by leagues).

 If the ultimate health and success of this community is the ultimate goal, the issue of volunteers is something that has to be approached pragmatically. You're always going to get 1 or 2 people like myself who work without recognition for long periods of time, but you're not going to get the large, motivated team that you need to really elevate the community to the next level.

 The devs work without rewards as well, but they have a goal: to see the mod succeed. They also have a sense of ownership in that mod's success. The average EiR player, however, has no incentive to work like Groundfire does, and to a lesser extent, like I do. They get no recognition.

 So while ideally everyone would just do what we do without hope or expectation of reward, that isn't how the world works. If we want this community to be the best it can be, responsibility needs to be taken for putting in the bare amount of effort required into motivating people to sacrifice their time to do so.

 -Wind

[Akranadas]

But its Christmas!