PE at vs Pershing and Churchill armor types

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[nugnugx]

The issue isn't PE's lack of AT options

Yes it is , PE is the only one without medium AT tank

(it's not keeping the factions 'special' because having one faction only without a type of unit is not keeping them 'special' but limiting that one faction

If allies had only AT tanks , and axis no AT tanks - then it would be keeping the factions 'unique' for example)

The issue comes from PE's inability to support their own assets.

Not true, there are mobile mortar halftracks and mgs,,, and now PE has normal mgs

If that Pershing is accompanied by even a single ATG

Then you fail if you cannot kill that single one ATG with mortar ht/ mg ht/ or normal inf and all of your marders or 50mm die.

PE does not need anything else than a medium AT tank.

[Artekas]

Just out of curiosity nug, how do you plan to kill an ATG with an IHT? It's really not an MG HT... even if it were, MGs on a vehicle mount with no turret would not be very impressive against ATG.

A new medium AT unit will not solve the problem of heavy armour, because medium AT is bad against heavy armour.

[nugnugx]

A new medium AT unit will not solve the problem of heavy armour, because medium AT is bad against heavy armour.

It's not supposed to be a direct counter but will give more possibilities just like  a m10 is not a direct counter to panther/tiger but combining m10 with atg/stickie/bazooka you can take on a panther.
So here combining an medium at with shreck/marder/50mm you could take on a pershing.

Just out of curiosity nug, how do you plan to kill an ATG with an IHT?

get in close and kill it , you will get shot once but close up you can take it out easily






One of the 3 winning units from the competition




: D

[Illegal_Carrot]

Yes it is , PE is the only one without medium AT tank

Giving PE some sort of medium armor would be nice, but would hardly solve the problem. It would help PE in other ways, but not vs heavy armor. You don't counter Panthers/Tigers/KTs/Jagds with Shermans, and you don't counter Pershings/Churhills with P4s; you get either a bigger gun or a heavier tank. Medium tanks won't cut it, here.

Then you fail if you cannot kill that single one ATG with mortar ht/ mg ht/ or normal inf and all of your marders or 50mm die.

Did you not read me post, or are you retarded? Do you plan on charging an IHT right into an ATG/Pershing combo? Or waves of infantry right into the Pershing?

And any good player can dodge a MHT barrage 90% of the time. Unless the first few shells of the barrage get lucky and kill the crew, the ATG will survive and reposition out of the MHT's range.
Or how about mobile AT infantry (a point which you totally ignored)?

[nugnugx]

Do you plan on charging an IHT right into an ATG/Pershing combo? Or waves of infantry right into the Pershing?

ofcourse , i charge inf into pershing , 2-3 will die but i will kill atg  and move in marders/50mm to force pershing back or kill it.

[shockcoil]

Did you not read me post, or are you retarded? Do you plan on charging an IHT right into an ATG/Pershing combo? Or waves of infantry right into the Pershing?

Yes I do. Well not right into it, as long as you flank the ATG and bring the right support you're golden. You and run inf at the ATG no problem though, pershing cant kill you fast enough to stop you getting rid of the ATG if you time your assault well i.e. co-ordinate with your other units and your teammates

[smurfORnot]

just like  a m10 is not a direct counter to panther/tiger but combining m10 with atg/stickie/bazooka you can take on a panther.

actually 2-3 of those counter panther/tiger very easly...and u dont need stickie,atg,zook...so it's quite a good counter to any kind of axis armor...if axis spamed armor,and us spammed only m10's I bet m10's would win any combination of axis armor...and if u add axis buffs vs us buffs,m10's would win even easier...

[nugnugx]

actually 2-3 of those counter panther/tiger very easly..

just as 2-3 p4s are good vs anything and 2-3 fireflies are a good heavy axis armor counter.

everything in numbers is good.

[smurfORnot]

Yes I do. Well not right into it, as long as you flank the ATG and bring the right support you're golden. You and run inf at the ATG no problem though, pershing cant kill you fast enough to stop you getting rid of the ATG if you time your assault well i.e. co-ordinate with your other units and your teammates

I just saw game in morning where wind and someone were playing against smokaz and also someone,all good players,and most of the game 2 PE couldnt do all that much to pershing,at guns combo combined with some inf...only later in game they actually did some dmg to them,but half of the game,they were just beaten...

[Artekas]

The funny thing about all this theorycrafting is that it's theorycrafting and you're forgetting that there's more than just an ATG+Pershing. That's only 20 pop.

[sheffer]

My little suggestion for 50mm:
Let them have 2 repears instead 1 for a same price.
Example - http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=17623.0
I have only 4 50mms in my coy and i save them for a whole game (50mm from start calling survived until 30min? cant remember), but when pershing came out 3 of them had like 20% of health (single pershing kill them with 3 shots in a decisive moment - no way for that with 20% health paks).
Its ok to have 4 atgs for USA or Brits, but for PE 4 50mm is not enough.

[spinn72]

What do you want, for PE to have a super awesome tank that penetrates all the time and does Marder or 50mm damage? Super heavies are meant to be a marathon to fight, not a one unit hard counter. PE HAVE ALL THE BALANCED AND NECESSARY COUNTERS. They may not be as traditional as the other factions, but since when was PE anything similar to ANY of the other factions?

Hell, Tank Destroyers are easily the best axis doctrine equipped to deal with a Pershing, even better than Blitz are, what with Jagds, Magnetic AT grenades (Stickies), AT grenades and Double shreks etc.

Non doctrinal PE counters:
MINES on Munitions halftrack (25mu) - 2 pop
Light AT Halftracks (75mu for tread breaker, multiple uses) - 3 pop

Both are extremely cheap and effective support units capable of stopping a Super heavy from being a major pain. Sure it's not as easy as kiting Axis super heavies with an FF, firing over hedges with PIATS or suiciding 2 m10's, but it is what PE currently have in their arsenal.

P.S. You guys need to stop talking about hypothetical scenarios!

[Artekas]

Hell, Tank Destroyers are easily the best axis doctrine equipped to deal with a Pershing, even better than Blitz are, what with Jagds, Magnetic AT grenades (Stickies), AT grenades and Double shreks etc.

Completely and totally irrelevant to the thread.

Non doctrinal PE counters:
MINES on Munitions halftrack (25mu) - 2 pop
Light AT Halftracks (75mu for tread breaker, multiple uses) - 3 pop

Mines are an unreliable solution and even worse than giving Brits a 17p emplacement as their only hope for AT. Being forced onto the defensive around a minuscule area in an attempt to bait it into the mine... It's easier said than done to treadbreak a supported Pershing. And engine damage alone is not countering something. When you need both extra expensive AT units (140fu or 110/50, both much more expensive than a normal ATG) AND some kind of specialised difficult-to-use disabler, whereas every other faction only needs normal AT units and maybe a ubiquitous disabler, there is an issue.

[smurfORnot]

and for mines there is usually enough that he brings 1 mineswepeer,which he will exspecially bring if he knows that u are TD  to counter tellers...

[Illegal_Carrot]

Worse yet, the Tread Damaged will wear off in just a minute or two, and your LATHT is pretty much useless once it's used it's Treadbreaker.

Yes I do. Well not right into it, as long as you flank the ATG and bring the right support you're golden. You and run inf at the ATG no problem though, pershing cant kill you fast enough to stop you getting rid of the ATG if you time your assault well i.e. co-ordinate with your other units and your teammates

So it requires coordination and planning amongst an entire team to take out a simple 20 pop Pershing/ATG combo. So while your entire team is working towards just flanking an ATG, your opponent has potentially 140+ pop of other units on the field, doing whatever else.

Seeing as Pershing + ATG is merely 20 pop and can be fielded by a single player, you don't see a problem with it completely negating one PE player, and requiring the entire team to take out? No other faction has this much trouble with any other combo, to the extent that a solution does not exist for them, and they have to rely on their teammates to do what they cannot.

A quick example: I was playing against Wind and two other PE players the other night. Wind was Tank Hunters spamming Tellers, and I forget the other two. Despite being greatly outnumbered and outplayed, I was able to hold them back through basically the entire match with a single ATG + Sherman, with occasional Ranger support.

It wasn't my skill or micro that won me those engagements, it was the simple fact that their AT could never engage my Sherman without getting two-shot in return, and his infantry could never move to engage my ATG without getting wiped in moments.

[BigDick]

i could reply l2p but actually the reason why pe has much trouble is because their at costs fuel and is destroyed and hardcountered by AT guns and handheld AT to easy and their AI cost fuel as well because their infantry is shit
oh and i forgot the infantry suck as well (except maybe buffed fallschirmjäger)
this leads to two excluding options

1. build a company using many marders because they die like flies to be prepared for pershings, crocs and light vehicles and being anihilated by at guns and infantry using handheld at
2. build a company to deal with AT guns and handheld AT using ISTs, ACs, stukka, mortar HT and being overrun by light armor, m10 and pershings/churchills


at least you have the choice

my advice would be: stay away from playing PE  

[smurfORnot]

well luft is quite good,since falls are very good base inf,and u just need to spam marders and panzerknacker is fine for finishing off dmg-ed heavy tanks...I dont have all that much problem's with them,but my luft company is oversupplied in both infantry and tanks department,and extra support pool luft has means absolutely nothing...tried to play with vanilla PE,and I just cant win a single game for some reason 

[spinn72]

well luft is quite good,since falls are very good base inf,and u just need to spam marders and panzerknacker is fine for finishing off dmg-ed heavy tanks...I dont have all that much problem's with them,but my luft company is oversupplied in both infantry and tanks department,and extra support pool luft has means absolutely nothing...tried to play with vanilla PE,and I just cant win a single game for some reason 

I've got Panzerknacker, used it on a full health Pershing and in 2 barrages, the Pershing had a little bit less than half health left. It's really strong!

[shockcoil]

Worse yet, the Tread Damaged will wear off in just a minute or two, and your LATHT is pretty much useless once it's used it's Treadbreaker.So it requires coordination and planning amongst an entire team to take out a simple 20 pop Pershing/ATG combo. So while your entire team is working towards just flanking an ATG, your opponent has potentially 140+ pop of other units on the field, doing whatever else.

Seeing as Pershing + ATG is merely 20 pop and can be fielded by a single player, you don't see a problem with it completely negating one PE player, and requiring the entire team to take out? No other faction has this much trouble with any other combo, to the extent that a solution does not exist for them, and they have to rely on their teammates to do what they cannot.

A quick example: I was playing against Wind and two other PE players the other night. Wind was Tank Hunters spamming Tellers, and I forget the other two. Despite being greatly outnumbered and outplayed, I was able to hold them back through basically the entire match with a single ATG + Sherman, with occasional Ranger support.

It wasn't my skill or micro that won me those engagements, it was the simple fact that their AT could never engage my Sherman without getting two-shot in return, and his infantry could never move to engage my ATG without getting wiped in moments.

A tank + ATG combo can be taken out by a co-ordinated attack from one PE player. A tank + ATG + support requires a combined assault with the help of your teammates but that's fair enough. If they have 2 players worth of support then it should take 2 players worth of units to take it out.

I will concede your second point though. It is far FAR easier to set up and play than to take out which means the average eir player is likely to suffer. However when you know how to do it, the process of dismantling it is quite simple. I'm not sure if this would constitute a balance problem or not though. On the one hand, I believe games should be balanced top down so I could just say l2p. But on the other hand, eir is a game where the community is quite small and allowing all of the player base to feel competitive should be key. I dunno that's not a call for me to make. Just saying that it's not this god-like combo you're making it out to be.

Hell I'm not even disagreeing with the premise of this thread. I think PE non-TH AT options against the Pershing needs some looking at but the issue you bring up is unfounded.

[smurfORnot]

I've got Panzerknacker, used it on a full health Pershing and in 2 barrages, the Pershing had a little bit less than half health left. It's really strong!

why would you wanna use it on full health pershing?

if u throw it on calliope,calli will be left on mere 5% of health...

u throw it on already dmed tanks,that have around 50% of health,and it will kill em...it would be to strong if you could just kill pershing like that with it...u just need to keep los on tank,,,