Company Composition

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[EIRRMod]

Hey guys,

Im just putting this thread up here for everyones ideas AND input on a resolution.

I want you to be HONEST, and point out exploits and spam that you have used, and what ALLOWED it to work (forcing a counter, overrunning direct counters, etc)

To start, we have 3 balance factors in place:

Resources.
Manpower restricts the size of the company.
Munitions represents the offensive / defensive capabilities of the unit.
Fuel represents (alongside Munitions as a secondary) as survivability of the unit, and a limiter of game-changing / restricted counter units (Units only countered by a certain type / weapon / tactic).

Availability Pool.
Each pool restricts an overuse of a specific genre of units.  Infantry, Vehicles, Support, Tanks.

In-game Population
Represents total presence of power on field at one time.

Currently, we are seeing that while we restrict (slightly) the genre of unit types - are spammable with no penalty lost to the other genres.

Thoughts please.

[Artekas]

My main issue is Churchill Crocodile spam. They are just as tough as a Pershing or Tiger, much more so with doctrinal buffs. They aren't as strong for anti-tank duties but their anti-infantry is much better. Even with the reduced anti-tank compared to a Pershing or a Tiger, they are still capable of quickly killing every single unit PE has bar the Panther, as well as Wehrmacht's medium armour. They have all of the features of a heavy tank, including a doctrine that provides multiple buffs for them, yet they're priced like an improved medium tank. I see no reason one fuel bonus should allow somebody to field FOUR heavy tanks. I suggest raising the cost significantly, somewhere around 580mp 500fuel.

[Scotzmen]

500 fuel?

I tiger costs 550 fuel, thereabouts. Anf the tiger is a hell of alot more effective then a church. Putting a church on the same price as a tiger, where the tiger is far supirior (even though in reality, church was far greater in a standoff)

If your going to make it 500 fuel, i at least expect it to be on par with a tiger.

[Demon767]

500 fuel is needed

[lionel23]

Well some thoughts, at least what I think it is, whether others agree with me or not is a matter of perception and opinion.

I haven't used any exploits, so my post will strictly be on 'Spam' and what has allowed it to work for me.

Ranger Spam
Counters

• Flame Weapons
• Medium and Heavy Armor
• MP44 Equipped Infantry

Reasons why I'm generally hard to counter

• Very few Axis seem to want to take real weapons, as I often don't encounter many MP44s and such on the field
• Many axis avoid the medium armor (Wehr it is the P4, which I personally think needs to be tougher) and instead rely on a single tank or two (Tiger, Panther)
• Rangers are the toughest infantry in the game, with 6 men and elite armor, they can generally go into a fight and come out with low life but still have all their men standing, thus able to utilize triage (Germans could mimic this, but I think it's wrong the medic bunker is a T3, needs to drop to T2 honestly)
• Expense of Appropriate Counter Infantry/Choices for Axis - By this I mean MP44s are restricted to PE as a mainstay infantry, or KCH which are super expensive for 3 men.  KCH definitely needs to be looked at (rather weaken the squad and 'average' it out to have more men, or give Grenadiers the option to equip 2 MP44s for variety). As is, rangers really only need to kill 2 KCH to win a fight (causing a retreat).
• Fire-up - This can be generally overkill, I could live without it but for me it allows me to escape running into MGs to chasing down infantry/tanks.

Reasons why I run this to an extreme

• I'm really good with infantry micro, and infantry combat is my preferred playstyle
• I use cover and can generally keep my guys alive for a very long time, making use of the triage more for elite infantry than basic infantry
• Riflemen I would never consider using, as the unit is too expensive (yes it's 200 MP but when you can spend 110 MP more for a much better squad, why bother? Yes there is a pool cost but I think the sacrifice is worth it) for something weak and used more as a utility unit (Sticky bombs over dual bazookas to counter mass LVs or flank armor? Hard to retain Vet 2 for bonus while Rangers its much easier and less frustrating)
• Lack of Good Support Weapons - Again I still have issues with US Support Weapons. 30 cals don't do their job of suppressing (they're there for damage.. but I got rangers for that..) and the Mortar is too short range to deal with a Vet 0 Wehr mortar or is unable to counter the PE equivalent (Mortar HT), so generally the only thing I take is the howitzer as it's the only decent Infantry artillery unit in the game and I don't use fuel.
• Lack of Decent Light Vehicles - Man now I wish we had a Light Tank or a T17, currently I COULD run Halftracks but Infantry has the lowest vehicle limit allowed of all the US factions, which means I'm discouraged from taking the quad (a good unit, being a long range glass cannon that actually suppresses) or HTs (6 Pool for 1? Sheesh, so much for a support weapon, throw it into basic infantry). I don't run M8s as I generally dislike utility units while others love them for the mines. If there was a light tank option like a stuart I would consider investing into that, but currently LVs provide my playstyle no benefit
• Lack of Good Armor - This was true up until the latest rework. I used to run M10s when you were able to get 6-7 of them to sacrifice to take those heavy german tanks out, but with their fuel increase and Pool cost, I can only really run 4 before going into oversupply... if that's the case, and being that I have no fuel issues, I rather just take 4 Shermans, though they die very quickly to some Axis AT companies. No way on the hellcats, as the unit I find is just generally too crap and lets you down on too many occassions.  With the Jumbo and a T4 that allows it to provide a 'buff' to infantry near it, I sacrificed a 4th Sherman to downgrade all my guys into Jumbos, and with it's reasonably high POP cost (13, being the most expensive US infantry unit there is), it does a good job of limiting support infantry and find it a much welcome addition, otherwise I wouldn't use armor at all.

Ways to Address Said Issue

• Allow Option to 'upgrade' the guys on support weapons to someone who can actually take more than a few shots. I generally am able to require with Vanilla Rangers and keep a weapon a whole game as opposed to constantly throwing away fragile riflemen. As riflemen provide nothing directly to my company or playstyle, and neither do support weapons.. again the vote goes to rangers to being good for their cost.
• Allow Body Armor upgrade or Health Bonus (pay for it with MU) to riflemen, and give the option to take BARs without suppressing. I've never relied on suppression to help me in anything as US and would rather like versatility, and as generally I'm immune to it myself (with rangers and armor or my axis playstyle), I generally rather take squads of combat capable men, even if its a slugging fight with bolt action rifles. Currently, the better buy is - duh - rangers.
• Allow Germans More Freedom/Choice in their Infantry Upgrades - Rangers can get SMGs, Rifles, or Bazookas; Commandoes get Stens, Rifles, or Piats. I prefer playing the allied factions as I can gear my guys how I want them.  With Axis you're generally very limited to what you field (and I personally never use volks, for the same reason I don't use riflemen. Grens are a much cooler unit and with Blitz being the new infantry company.. which I think should be Defensive.. you get free Elite armor on everyone which lets me have more 'axis rangers' than a US Ranger company. Anyway, give the germans the ability to put their weapons on other squads. Volks paying for a single shrek, Grens getting MP44s (not full squad, but a half)
• Adjust Pool Cost/Pop of Axis Infantry, Address Issues with their Elite - I think this is another stickler.  My Rangers are 6 pop (1 per man), but when you look at the generally tougher axis units, its 5 pop for fewer guys unless it's volks.  Grens are 5 pop, which is nice and good, give them MP44s like I said above and they can become a cheaper assault option than KCH. KCH on the other hand I dispise.  Same pool cost as rangers, half the guys, decent MU cost. The problem with them is being 5 whole pop for 3 guys, you really only have 2 combat capable guys unless you plan to throw away KCH.  They generally will only have fausts and no shreks (would be nice to give them a shrek option) and my 6 man squad, in terms of pool, is equal to 3 of these guys, BUT I can afford to lose 5 rangers, while a KCH unit can only afford to lose 2. If they made that defensive T4 give ALL INFANTRY SQUADS +1 man, that would go to making them see the field more often to counter spam companies (in terms of infantry).
• Panzer 4 - I love these guys, I'd like them to be the mainstay of my army, but there are few good buffs for them. Yes I run blitz company, and I realized that with German Engineering these guys eat up way, way too much MU.  2nd repair kit should not be a cost on top of the original! And being they are... well, since they are fighting allied ATGs being the only real decent heavy armor counter to the germans, they tend to get shot to pieces very quickly. Tiger does a much better job munching infantry as a support tank due to tougher armor and higher health, as most people don't seem to play with Medium armor a lot.

The first 2 are ways to address it from the allied side, as their is little reason to NOT take them even with their pool cost and MU sink that one needs to dump in them to take advantage and for what you pay on Support Weapons and Riflemen, their 'offensive' upgrade via MU is just not worth it.

The last 2 I suggest as ways to axis to better address countering me.  Currently only players like Smokaz or someone else who runs HEAVY volks companies are capable of attritioning me or someone who relies heavily on Dual Tigers for the massive splash damage or heavy P4s.  Axis Medium and Elite Infantry is generally non-existant to fight me man-to-man (Grens lacking MP44s, or KCH on the field) and flamers being heavily restricted to certain units, PE generally has it better (Fals with Riflenades and FG42s can rip my company apart, as also assault flame grens.. pioneers... glass cannon which I can attrition generally due to being so few guys). It's my issue anyway when I play axis.

[EIRRMod]

Ok, I havent been clear enough.

Rather than pricing changes.

What kind of mechanics do you think would / would not have worked to limit / prevent your spam tactic.

For example:

I ran a 10 officer company.
It would have been limited by costs or availability tweaks - but would be preventable if there was a hard-cap mechanic added.

[lionel23]

If not pricing... addressing the units that are capable of countering the spam but they themselves are limited (in my example KCH), giving options to other infantry for a... more numerous ability to counter the 'flood' of the spammed unit (IE Grens in this case... like if there are 4 ATGs, if you throw 15 stags at it, eventually you overwhelm the counter). And/or make other units more viable (Hmm... those US Officers were a pretty good bang for my buck.. I'll take them over riflemen! Thus the resulting officer spam of the past).

Just my ideas EIRR. Other than that... at WORST are we talking about modifying existing units like removing cloak from storms or fire-up and elite armor from rangers and stuff?

That's pretty much all there really is if pricing can't be discussed.

[Smokaz]

I've run riflespam company, ranger spam company, recon spam company, storm spam company, grenadier spam company. M8 spam company. 6 pak40 6 ostwind company. Etc etc etc

What causes me to be able to make a company - is that I can actually buy this company and play with it. There's no hardcap. The threshold for PP payment is low to begin with, and doctrine buffed units are easy to vet up (which makes them stronger) and for infantry they are easy to keep alive because of the forgiving retreat system infantry has.

Why does it work? Because Doctrine buffs make them very tough/better/worth more than their cost, or worth their cost by attrition even in situations which they are not 100% effective at. And the system allows me to take a full complement of doctrine-buffed units and foregoing anything else if I so choose to. Because it's a better company in the majority of the cases, you pick them to win more easily with it instead of having to manage the full range of units that on paper you are required to use to solve different problems ingame.

Only in the situation where you lose a vast supply of PP's each game by frail vehicles, frail infantry, dying, thus "using" the points for real does the oversupplied composition punish me.

[Artekas]

You posted in the OP that pricing was a balancing factor for this purpose so I thought it would be okay to talk about that here. My bad, I guess.

[EIRRMod]

You posted in the OP that pricing was a balancing factor for this purpose so I thought it would be okay to talk about that here. My bad, I guess.

NP, I wasnt clear in the OP

The OP is just showing what we currently use.

[lionel23]

I'll have to agree with Smokaz on his points as well, the Doctrine buffing is not crazy I don't think (at least with what I run) but it makes me more effective at what I do, and as Smokaz says you pick them to win more easily instead of managing a bunch of half-ass things. I think the PP payment is pretty high for elites honestly, but there are no other PP sinks due to how expensive the unlocks are (I have nothing but oversupply and vet for my company since I have zero offmaps).

And the other big key that Smokaz pointed out is the infantry retreat system.  As long as one ranger in a 6 man squad escapes, you avoid paying PP and retain your numbers, hence why I run so many of them.  Axis with fewer guys on the field, I can generally force them off the field for many times my number (hence why I suggested certain docs really adding +1 mans or giving the more numerous infantry groups the ability to take their elite counterpart's weapons, which are designed to work against respective spam.. ie shreks on a bigger AT numbered squads or MP44s on a more disposable/numbers squad).  With vehicles (and I guess another reason I gave up vetting them) is the generally one-sided nature of them.  Axis units are generally all around tougher and thus easier to retain vet (like a Vet 3 Panther or Tiger or Jadg), while too many allied vehicles die too fast to things like 50mms (I think it needs a deploy) or the heavy shrek options.  If you go 'over' in tanks, well the tank dies, bye bye PP.  With infantry, much more forgiving.  I'm not asking for total balance on both sides, but with allies its all about their infantry and axis more about their tanks I suppose, since you really lack anything better that can be sustained against a spam.

[Demon767]

ranger spam is not a problem lional lol

[Smokaz]

The only thing that possibly (I am not of this opinion, but I know a lot of other people are) would be needed after a harsh hardcap on rangers, airborne, doctrine buffed super infantry etc was to go in was to give americans a medium infantry type with rifles effective at range specifly miminum 40% accuracy at long range vs other infantry. If I was in charge - which I aint, I would also look at whether or not it's good balance for the BAR to be great against wehr, and complete dogshit vs PE.

ranger spam is not a problem lional lol

A bit coloured by running IST spam with flamers, are we?

I'm not asking for total balance on both sides, but with allies its all about their infantry and axis more about their tanks I suppose, since you really lack anything better that can be sustained against a spam.

I think a nice way to reflect the surviability of panthers, and jagdpanthers, vs something like a m10, is to give some of the tougher tanks a very small PP cost for the intial purchase

[lionel23]

Well I'm just saying, some people say and some people don't, so just offering from my prespective in all honesty.

If we're talking about things like Stag Spam and such, again I think the issue is give the AT weapons to the bigger squads like Volks, as the cost of a shrek is pretty high and the grens are a poorer choice to have it on due to the cost and their own POOL value.

With the new tank hunters, they'll be able to get discount double shreks, which for them they shouldn't have an issue with allied LV spam (150 I believe total for TWO shreks, that's a deal).

Other than that, I'm not really aware of any other significant spam in any games I play that can't be countered with the right force (ie, if the guy has 30 volks, don't throw 6 atgs at him and protect them.. for example).  Use the right units for the right task, which some people have trouble dealing with (the newer players mainly).

@ Smokaz - Meh, that wouldn't address their medium infantry issue.  The unit needs to be tougher.  If the unit still dies like flies, it fails as a medium unit. A lower 5-6 man riflemen squad with better armor, option for weapons like BARs or something would work. Rangers are still my favorite unit (best model, best voices for 'gung-ho Americans' I think, another big reason I play them for flavor) and I hate to see a hard cap on them. I think personally it is the axis infantry choices/counters that are lacking.  How often do you see someone run KCH for example.

[Artekas]

but with allies its all about their infantry and axis more about their tanks I suppose,

I disagree with this statement completely, as a Wehrmacht player the only armour I use is an Ostwind in my start and a Panther to deal with armoured companies. I focus much more on my infantry. I've seen allies use both infantry and armour strategies effectively as well.

[Demon767]

no smokaz i got rid of that company agesago and run storm tactics which is alright

im talkking about the history of EIRR when lionel spams rangers. its never been aproblem.

[Smokaz]

Well in my initial post that I deleted I included that I think company composition is plagued by the following faction "flank sides":

I am aware that some of it is planned, or being remedied, but I prefer to discuss what's actually in the game not something that's possibly going to be in there.

A lot of company's turn spammy because of "factional difference underperformers"

- Lack of infantry based supression and sniper for PE
- Lack of infantry based ATG for PE that can compete with ATG snipe
- Lack of anti-sniper for british
- Lack of long-range medium infantry type for americans
- Lack of supression on 30 cal
- BAR problematic vs PE
- Lack of vehicle disablers á la sticky for wehr
- Non-doctrinal ATG snipe not working for wehr at all
- Repair being too weak vs healing for infantry in some cases
- Unupgraded KCH's not available (If you could use kar98 kch, it would open up a whole new avenue of strategy for wehrmacht, because they could continue to sit at range vs a american sniper. It would be the composition they brought out when the enemy tried to beat them their support spam or range fighting) ((Lee-enfield Commandos opened up a grenade type of play for brits, why not do this for KCH too)
- Stug being so much worse than the m18, marder, m10
- Firefly alone being so much worse than anything else

Typical EIRR player stuff

how a lot of american company players will just go: "fuck getting a 30 cal at all, when I can get some unupgraded rifles or rangers with doctrine buffs. i cant trust that shit to do its job vs axis inf

"Might as well just get mass ISTs or mass armored cars or unit x I think will beat inf spam because so many people spam infantry and backcap these days that I can't hold the map with a slower, more combined arms type of army

Fuck it, I'm getting mass volks with faust in my company because I cant trust pak + shrek to hold without a engine disabler, or a stug to actually penetrate/damage stuff If I go for one of those

Fuck it, firefly cant do shit, I have to spam ATG's and Button

"shit im facing PE, time to load up on grenades and flamers only and spam them up the ass, no point to try any standoffs because i get so horribad pwnmd at medium/long range, even with my DPS upgrade the BAR

Imo the planned nerfs for stickies and button would be a 2nd choice to actually just implementing button and sticky type of abilities for the axis infantry.

no smokaz i got rid of that company agesago and run storm tactics which is alright

im talkking about the history of EIRR when lionel spams rangers. its never been aproblem.

Bigdick doesnt like it. 

Actually if you play a combined arms PE company, full package rangers are pretty lethal and can deal with almost every unit you have.

Stuff like +1 free smg, tank reapers etc just is the icing on the cake. I bet that a single smg range guy would kill a 3 man squad of PG's if he was magically teleported into short range right in front of them. They are just that poon.

And imo, currently, if you can force PE into a situation where their infantry is forced to succeed against you you've almost won already because their infantry is the easiest to stop of any faction, Even their expensive squads are frail and pathetic. It's just not the same kind of creature, as when some grens more up to you in green cover and start harassing you, with a mg42 somewhere ready to support.

Wehr = Hard to supress, high health, can't win a standoff against them because of medikits
Americans = Either dirt cheap grenade tossers or fireup superheroes, both work exellent
Brits = have fun doing a standoff vs tommies supported by captain and LT
PE = HLEP?!

They got nothing going for them other than fireup-lite (sprint) and I-can-take-a-lot-of-bren-and-bar shots.

[Grundwaffe]

+1 smok.

[Smokaz]

+1 to me being in charge, would fix a lot of things

dont even expect anyone to read it tbh

[BigDick]

the current availability pool at least needs to be removed because it don't reduce spam companies it delays them until people have enough PP to oversupply (e.g. when doctrines are maxed out)

a supply pool like omg is imho not the best solution because spamy companies are possible without a drawback for the specific battle were something is spamed
e.g one game you spam T17 the other game you spam M8
and it will be hard to specific a number for units in a "normal" company to calculate the amount of units that can be supplied after each battle

- Stug being so much worse than the m18, marder, m10

i disagree the stug isn't that bad but it has a different role than m10 or marder
its an infantry supporting assault gun which means that it's only usefull with skirts and the mg gunner
but these upgrades are as expensive as skirts and mg gunner on a p4 which makes it a waste of munition
which makes people taking 4-5 P4 with skirts more likely instead of a mixture of skirted P4s and stugs with gunner and skirts.

-------------------
i run an us armor company with 5 m8 5 crocs 8 AT guns and all left over ressources are spent into rifles
why do i do that? because i can! and without spending any PP for oversupply