2v2 St Winn - Why do we still need Spawn Buff?

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[cloud234]

In games like this when you push the enemy to the spawn, why do we still need spawn buff?

Understandably it is clearly in bad taste to recon run at the start and bombing run the ENTIRE starting call-in, but that has been fixed with timers given to offmaps.

Spawn buffs have allowed:

1. Vehicles to charge down the road, activating all mines placed behind enemy lines.
2. For people to use gay tactics like hiding vetted units near the spawn on small maps. You can't take it out (i.e. artillery) because if you do, you lose a LARGE amount of units to invulnerable troops which spawns out of nowhere.

If I've pushed the enemy to spawn:

1. Despite having to get my troops to walk the length of the ENTIRE MAP... I still manage to keep a cohesive line, pushing them all the way to the rear.

2. I may be sacrificing a little bit more units, to hold more territory, which is clearly one of the mechanic of EiRR play, to cap territory (and to out-attrite).

Now is Spawn Buff rewarding "bad territory play" but "smart out attrition"?

[Smokaz]

Agree. Spawnbuff while it hasn't changed much has been shown to cause major grief on a lot of maps. Like Leophones 2v2 map with the town (not france) pumas are arriving spawnbuffed inthe middle of the map.

Either the map control element of eirr needs to be reduced to a semblance of what it was before, or spawnbuff needs to be confined to the Home Sector.

Quite a few players will take advantage of the spawnbuff mechanic in a non-intended way, if the situation allows for it.

Nothing makes me rage harder than someone pulling on a spawn buffed 57mm next to their calliope hiding in spawn.

[cloud234]

Agree. Spawnbuff while it hasn't changed much has been shown to cause major grief on a lot of maps. Like Leophones 2v2 map with the town (not france) pumas are arriving spawnbuffed inthe middle of the map.

Bergen = )

Roads on Maps are nice, it gives u the strategy of, charging fast into the town... but it shuld also allow the opponent to ambush and "trap" the road... giving a trade off between risk and speed.

[Unkn0wn]

Spawnbuffs also

Protect units from
- Mines at spawn
- Off-maps thrown at the start of a game
- Spawn rushes and camps

Now while your arguments against spawn buffs are valid, they do not outweight the significant pro arguments. We had a long period without spawn buffs before they were implemented, they're here for a reason and they're here to stay. Which doesn't mean we can't try to improve them though, to lessen the chances of 'abusing' them. (i.e invulnerable vehicles quickly getting to the center, etc)

We recently tried having the spawn buff only work in friendly territory, but that was far from perfect. Suggestions on 'improving' spawn buff without losing its significant, and at times much needed benefits, are always welcome.

[Smokaz]

Confine it to the home sector? Everything else is dinner.  I think the main gripe here is the use of spawnbuff outside of "spawn". -_-

[EliteGren]

Mines still work as far as I know. So do stickies and other critical infecting weapons, the damage is not applying though.

[Unkn0wn]

Not all maps have the 'home sector' as the secor you spawn in, and I'm not even sure its possible to give specific buffs within a home sector. (Or if the game even recognises a 'Home' sector) Also, you'd still be able to put your artillery piece in or near the home sector.

There may be a way of having the spawn buff limited to x% of the map, similar to how the game recognised when you have x% territory left and puts you on a defeat countdown timer, but that would require SCAR coding. And we currently don't have a SCAR coder.

[cloud234]

Protect units from
- Mines at spawn
- Off-maps thrown at the start of a game
- Spawn rushes and camps

1. Fair enough, but reduce it to 2 or 3 secs.... thats all it really takes to click on unit and click move elsewhere away from mine... if it was direct on spawn, it would detonate with 0 damage.

2. Offmaps are already on CD, they can't be use at the start!

3. If you get pushed back to the spawn.... isn't that your fault for bad play??? Same thing goes for camping. Do we really want to reward that??? Look on the bright side, as the "defending" player, u get constant action thru out the game instead of hiking across the battlefield ^^

Confine it to the home sector? Everything else is dinner.  I think the main gripe here is the use of spawnbuff outside of "spawn". -_-

Well that too.... and that essentially we've pushed them so far back... they aren't even advancing. They are just fighting at spawn. If we stay back, they mortar/kite us. If we push forward, we get wtfpwned by spawn buff.

Not all maps have the 'home sector' as the secor you spawn in, and I'm not even sure its possible to give specific buffs within a home sector. (Or if the game even recognises a 'Home' sector) Also, you'd still be able to put your artillery piece in or near the home sector.

There may be a way of having the spawn buff limited to x% of the map, similar to how the game recognised when you have x% territory left and puts you on a defeat countdown timer, but that would require SCAR coding. And we currently don't have a SCAR coder.

Thats a good idea... and hopefully for limited time during spawn as well.

[CrazyWR]

Mines still work as far as I know. So do stickies and other critical infecting weapons, the damage is not applying though.

no, they don't.  I've seen panthers run through mines near spawn a million times and just ignore them entirely.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

the most gay thing i have ever seen was when i was playing a game as axis and some guy flanked me and my allies and then placesd 2 m10s at the spawn location killin ALL of the units i was calling in at 45 second timer.

in short i would like to keep the buff timer but make it shorter AND make the units uncrushable at start, but hey its my opiininon

[smurfORnot]

it's silly that arty and bullets cant to shit to them,but you can still crush them....

[Smokaz]

Then again this is mostly a problem in a completely one sided stomp where people are confined to their spawn, the other scenario is some gay guy calling out a vet 3 57mm (CURSE HIM!) to protect his calli. And everyone can do that. It's not imbalanced per se - its just "how it is". Let it lay for now, and hope for a elegant solution where spawn buff still protects against gayness (mines will not damage spawn buffed units in case anyone has doubt) but isn't some kind of midmap troll trick.

[Groundfire]

I agree that the spawn buff timer could be cut down but you should not be able to punish someone into their spawn because they are new/bad/having a rotten day/no coordination/teaching a noob, etc.

It's not poor territory management when all the cards are stacked in one team's favor.

With the spawn buff right now, you can reliably push and hold 75% to 80% of the map. Thats enough of an advantage and to pursure further than that should have a risk to it otherwise we just dash the slipery slope with a good coating of motor oil.

[cloud234]

I agree that the spawn buff timer could be cut down but you should not be able to punish someone into their spawn because they are new/bad/having a rotten day/no coordination/teaching a noob, etc.

It's not poor territory management when all the cards are stacked in one team's favor.

Perhaps have spawn buff not work after 15 mins into the game or something???

Here is a fair match up

Cloud
Smokie
Kipsanas (I personally think this guy is a deadweight :p)

vs

Voleron (Their deadweight. New guy I think)
RommelsBadAss
wickY26

I think this is an even matchup and not a one sided/stacked game. Their loss was due to their super heavies which are vet 3 and they wanted to keep it alive but not willing to pull it off. This results in them camping at spawn towards the end of the game. At the early part was a fair exchange until mid game.

But at end game? Seriously? How do we force that Vet 3 off, we're not even talking about vet hunting it. We just want to force it off, without getting butt raped by invul units. We were just lucky we manage to hang on until the 3mins timer is up... but it won't happen all the time.

[Smokaz]

Eherpderpharpharpschurp.

We could just have fallen back, like you were saying all the time. It's just that without any vet on my own units, I might as well *try* to kill them.

Wasn't really a problem in that game.

[Voleron]

You know,  I really don't see why every man and his dog thinks i'm new.

Go away for a couple months, everyone forgets you.

[PonySlaystation]

Naw, I remember you, but people judge you by your skill.

[Voleron]

True, I do kinda suck at this. Heh.