[Wehr] More options, More Versatility

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[lionel23]

Okay after seeing some of these silly 'fausts suck, panthers suck' threads and the like,  I'm going to put up what I think is really wrong with the Wehr faction, I won't be discussing PE as I mainly run a Inf Luft company and can't say from experience how their vehicles fare or what needs improving.  Here are the biggest issues I see with Wehr currently in the meta game.

• Knights Cross Holders - Overpriced and not Effective for their Cost
• Grenadiers - Need access to MP44 rifles, even if it's only half of them like Stromtroopers purchase (2 and then 2)
• Volks - Option for another form of AT other than fausts?

I'll explain my reasoning on why the above 3 is an issue.

1. KCH for being a whooping 5 POP, 9 POOL, and an astounding 110 MU for a 3-man squad with MP44s is outrageous.  The squad takes up way too much pool, is super expensive both pop and MU wise.  They get gibbed by tanks pretty easily (one tank shot say kills one guy, you're down to 2 guys and really at this point if you're saving vet, the squad is almost useless).  My solution is reduce their pool value to 4 and slightly lowering the MU cost on them or reduce their POP cost.  It seems to be they are a double-nerfed unit.  The high pool cost prevents 'spam' of them in the company, but also in the game their high MU cost (one squad = 1 pak roughly) and pop cost (1 squad = 1 pak = 1 gren/volks) severely limits their deployment already.  Also for 3 men, it's a terrible assault squad.  I think either the above cost reduction or making the squad 4 man by default would help it in the anti-infantry play allies do (with terror getting 5-man KCH or something).  Also, is there no way possible to give them the option to take a shrek and rifles? I'm curious if that is possible.

2. Grenadiers - Four a 4 man squad, it is one hell of a great squad for infantry fighting, but fewer men = more vulnerable to vehicles/tanks.  Shrek and LMG options are great, but really what this squad also needs is to be a tougher.. assault squad if kitted.  Volks with mp40s are terrible, and KCH alone are too few to really make a difference.  I would like to see an option to buy 2x or 4x MP44s for a medium range assault infantry that is able to fire a gun while moving (LMGs are great defensive weapons or support weapons, but cannot be fired while moving).  I would like to see more 'options' available to customize the grens to fit a role in your force.  With that...

3. Volks - 5 man squad, ideal for an AT platform.  I think the option to either buy a 'Boy's AT' ATR rifle or a shrek on this squad would help it immensely in what they do, which is fight at long range.  Being more guys, they are able to stay put and fight tanks and vehicles better than other squads due to their numbers (like rangers and airborne have AT weapons but need to lose 5 guys before forcing them off).  With rifles they can stay at range and support still.  While grens are a nice hardy platform when fighting other infantry, their squad is 4 men which makes them very vulnerable to tanks due to instant gibbing shots or multi-gib shots.  And with the shrek being very expensive on them, I think it would help axis play by letting volks get the option for them.

Personally, I see Volks are a support squad (great if they could get an LMG or Shrek), Grenadiers are mainline infantry (2 men fewer than rifle squads but able to hit as hard, have great life and other than lack of MP44s have many good options), and KCH should be assault infantry but they are like snipers... too few men for a high cost which can't let them do their jobs.

Just me personally, but just airing my issues with Wehr at the moment.  Maybe some slight love to Panzer 4s would help, Stugs and Panthers are just fine as well as their support weapons are great as is.

[smurfORnot]

I dont see,why is p4 more expensive to sherman while being weaker...

and us sniper is being more effective vs wehr since wehr units are less man than any us unit...

[Demon767]

omg the p4 is cheaper than the sherman now. it was changed ages ago,how slow are you mate?

[smurfORnot]

how is 400/250 being cheaper compared to 395/240,since you will buy upgun sherman,and you will buy skirts for p4,ok,you get 25mun cheaper,and you will loose to sherman in 100% I think..

[Tymathee]

I dont see,why is p4 more expensive to sherman while being weaker...

and us sniper is being more effective vs wehr since wehr units are less man than any us unit...

but wehr sniper has faster cooldown and is more useful against support crews than the us sniper is. plus the bike and swagon on pe and scout car are excellent sniper hunters.

[Demon767]

Okay.. its a tad worse tank than the sherman.. whats your point? its priced accordingly.

[DarkSoldierX]

He just stated that the p4 still cost slightly more.

[Demon767]

no Darksoldier he stated it is cheaper than sherman

[smurfORnot]

how is he cheaper than sherman,since if you face them 1v1,u will have dead p4 and sheraman that will repair and be almost at around 80%...I didnt say that p4 needs buff,I dont use them all that much,but I would rather have upgun sherman than p4 with skirts...and when you take mun/fuel/mp they come around same price...

bike is same sniper hunter as is jeep,scout car doesnt have that great detection radius,since then schwim would be useless for only 25mp cheaper and a bit fuel...

[Demon767]

wait, i just checked EIR myself, when did the base cost of a p4 become more expensive than the Sherman

[Demon767]

upgun should incur a fu increase

[lionel23]

You know you're all off topic of the subject of this thread...

[cloud234]

1. KCH for being a whooping 5 POP, 9 POOL, and an astounding 110 MU for a 3-man squad with MP44s is outrageous.  The squad takes up way too much pool, is super expensive both pop and MU wise.  They get gibbed by tanks pretty easily (one tank shot say kills one guy, you're down to 2 guys and really at this point if you're saving vet, the squad is almost useless).  My solution is reduce their pool value to 4 and slightly lowering the MU cost on them or reduce their POP cost.  It seems to be they are a double-nerfed unit.  The high pool cost prevents 'spam' of them in the company, but also in the game their high MU cost (one squad = 1 pak roughly) and pop cost (1 squad = 1 pak = 1 gren/volks) severely limits their deployment already.  Also for 3 men, it's a terrible assault squad.  I think either the above cost reduction or making the squad 4 man by default would help it in the anti-infantry play allies do (with terror getting 5-man KCH or something).  Also, is there no way possible to give them the option to take a shrek and rifles? I'm curious if that is possible.

1. KCH is a highly specific scenario usage unit.
2. It has high suppression resistance and high survivability. Often it can go down to 1/3 health with all 3 men standing.
3. Its only real weakness in infantry to infantry combat is flames.
4. Avoid tanks at all cost.

To be really honest, KCH will be well balanced at about 3.5 men. At 3 men, they are abit weak, at 4 men they are overpowering. At 5 men, that is INSANE.

The only real balance they need is maybe lowering by 10 munitions and lowering pool value to 5 or 6. They are an assault squad which are like a slightly weaker version of commandos.

2. Grenadiers - Four a 4 man squad, it is one hell of a great squad for infantry fighting, but fewer men = more vulnerable to vehicles/tanks.  Shrek and LMG options are great, but really what this squad also needs is to be a tougher.. assault squad if kitted.  Volks with mp40s are terrible, and KCH alone are too few to really make a difference.  I would like to see an option to buy 2x or 4x MP44s for a medium range assault infantry that is able to fire a gun while moving (LMGs are great defensive weapons or support weapons, but cannot be fired while moving).  I would like to see more 'options' available to customize the grens to fit a role in your force.  With that...

I fantasize about this idea as well... but that would mean you wudl have the most awesome assault infantry ever. Cheap MP cost, easy to vet up plus grenades to clear out houses..... a tad bit imba ain't it?

3. Volks - 5 man squad, ideal for an AT platform.  I think the option to either buy a 'Boy's AT' ATR rifle or a shrek on this squad would help it immensely in what they do, which is fight at long range.  Being more guys, they are able to stay put and fight tanks and vehicles better than other squads due to their numbers (like rangers and airborne have AT weapons but need to lose 5 guys before forcing them off).  With rifles they can stay at range and support still.  While grens are a nice hardy platform when fighting other infantry, their squad is 4 men which makes them very vulnerable to tanks due to instant gibbing shots or multi-gib shots.  And with the shrek being very expensive on them, I think it would help axis play by letting volks get the option for them.

They are quite powerful with fausts (and nades for defensive) already... tbh.

and KCH should be assault infantry but they are like snipers... too few men for a high cost which can't let them do their jobs.

Just me personally, but just airing my issues with Wehr at the moment.  Maybe some slight love to Panzer 4s would help, Stugs and Panthers are just fine as well as their support weapons are great as is.

I get 60 kills with axis snipers and 30 kills with KCH.... I think they can do their job just fine. P4s are fantastic suicide tanks. Jeez.

[Malgoroth]

Wehrmacht has only one weakness imo, and that is the lack of a short range vehicle disabler.  

[Spartan_Marine88]

To be really honest, KCH will be well balanced at about 3.5 men. At 3 men, they are abit weak, at 4 men they are overpowering. At 5 men, that is INSANE.

4 men KCH are good at rolling single rifle squads, but overpowering? not really

[spinn72]

4 man KCH could run up to MG's with swords and not take any damage or supression. Doctrine buffs make these units as good as they are, without buffs, they're still well balanced.

Changing grens/volks would cause more balance issues than it'll solve.

[Tymathee]

You know you're all off topic of the subject of this thread...

I'll make it short. Wehr already HAS more options thus have more versatility.

Lets do non doc infantry
Americans - Rifles, Engineers
Britsh - Tommies, Sappers, REcon Tommies
PE - Pz Grens, Assault Grens, TB
Wehr - volks, grens, kch, pios

so, we see wehr already has more options.

Then lets go to each and see what they have in terms of upgrades offensively

Ami - Rifles 0 nades, stickies, bars.  Engies flamers, mg bunker, mines, demos
Brits - Tommies - Rifle nades, Brens, Sappers - piats, mines, demos
PE - Pz Grens - G43's, at nades, flame nades, assault grens - flame nades, TB - at nades
Wehr - Volks - slow mines, fausts, mp40's. Grens - Schrecks, 2x lmgs, nades - KCH - assault grenades, fausts Pios bunker, flamer, mg bunker, mines, demos

wow, so lets see which list is longer...wheres the lack of versatility?

[AlterFrax]

Can you imagine groups of 3+ volks squads with shrecks?! Their rifles are crap, but dude, used correctly, they would roll so many things.

[lionel23]

4 man KCH could run up to MG's with swords and not take any damage or supression. Doctrine buffs make these units as good as they are, without buffs, they're still well balanced.

Changing grens/volks would cause more balance issues than it'll solve.

Currently you can do that with even grens, I don't have a problem with allied HMGs unless it's a Vickers from British.

@ Cloud - On the supposed IMBA Grenadiers with assault.. not really, they would still get chewed apart by rifles or rangers with SMGs, I personally am not afraid of KCH in their current form, really too easy to kill with my infantry or tanks, and being they are more expensive than a Grenadier squad or assault PGrens (who are 4 man MP44s themselves and don't 'imba' PE), I see no problem with giving more options to Wehr which I think it sorely needs.  MP40s don't cut it for assaulting, and I rather use vanilla volks rifles than charge with their fragile health.

As US I got plenty of options to long range, short range, or long range/bazooka with my rangers, same thing with Commandoes with piats, rifles, or SMGs.  I honestly can't remember the last time anyone has ever fielded KCH and actually earned a kill off them in any of my games as my infantry can waste them and with shotguns on Engineers and Airborne with their men, I really don't see why KCH can't get some love in a persistant environment where the squad is overly too expensive to be worth fielding.

Tym, your list is flawed in that you forget that additional options with US, and no one really uses MG bunkers as allies so don't see why that needs to be mentioned.

Riflemen get access to ATRs under Armor (x2) and Bazooka with Infantry also.  US Inf gives them +1 Bar for more firepower for free. Engineers I believe get an armor upgrade and also Armor engineers get shotguns, which are outstanding at close range but lack medium range like my SMGs.
PE gets rifle nades and mass ATRs (+1 for free too) with their doctrine upgrades. Volks get fausts (which I love for a vehicle disabler and kills tanks and LVs super fast when in mass), shreks I personally think are overpriced or at least a cheaper ATR weapon needs to be introduced (which PE Tank Hunters is getting discount shreks at the price of a bazooka for double roughly). Assault grenades on KCH is a waste, better on a 'bigger man' squad like Volks. Faust cooldown is too long in the hands of a 3 man KCH who most likely will lose all 2-3 guys by the time they can fire again, as opposed to a 5 man volks which can stay around longer to use that 2nd shot of theirs.

Honestly it seems the Wehr infantry is restricting in that KCH is not a good unit to field, Grens have long range firepower thru LMGs and Rifles and Shreks but nothing for medium range to defend against assault infantry, and Volks are ideally long range due to low health and crap armor, while their MP40s are more a detriment to the squad.  Best use I saw of them was 2 MP40s squads charging a vanilla riflemen squad who proceeded to kill all 10 guys and lost only 1-2 riflemen in the process.  My rangers (a single squad) can do that in reverse, a single 5+ smg squad is able to rape 3x their numbers and still have 4+ guys standing to heal.

Can you imagine groups of 3+ volks squads with shrecks?! Their rifles are crap, but dude, used correctly, they would roll so many things.

Okay.. a bit contradictory... they would roll 'so many things'... yet their rifles are crap.. so they would only be able to fight vehicles and still get owned by infantry.. sounds balanced to me. I would always have more men with special weapons over a smaller squad with tougher health, especially in a persistant enviroment.. if you care about that gren squad with a shrek, you can only afford to lose 3 guys.  My rangers have to lose 5 guys before I start pulling weapons and squads off the field. KCH is 2 mans, and Volks well, those are sacrificial troops as their armor is crap that there are generally no survivors unless used at long range.

[Tymathee]

Lets do non doc infantry

if you really read my post you'd have seen I said non doc. makes my post be seen in a whole different light.