[WM] Terror Wishlist v2 (Doctrine Abilities)

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[Voleron]

Yea, I was actually agreeing with you and pointing that out to Voleron.

Y'know, I did also say back there that realism didn't matter too much. 

That said, I feel like nitpicking:

no it wasn't used because hitler was blinded for some time because of a gas attack when he fought in world war 1

Unfortunately, that's more mythical than most would like to believe. The real reason is that the British, in both World Wars, had retardedly large stocks of gas weapons - the largest ever stockpile in the world at any time. Everyone at the time knew this. However, by WW2, it was all old prewar-era inhalants like Mustard Gas. Their development had basically stopped after WW1. The Germans, however, had kept researching their gas until by WW2 they had nasty stuff like Nerve Gas ready to fling around - however, their High Command mistakenly believed that the British had maintained a similar level of gas development to them - a terrifying thought, considering the difference in stockpiled quantity. It was a practical concern, and their fears were all but (falsely) confirmed when the British threatened to retaliate in kind to any violation of the gas-based sections of the Geneva Treaties.
It was certainly exacerbated by Churchill's repeated comments that the British should just gas the Germans and be done with it. (Often left out of writings about him due to the sheer force of irony there.)
Hitler having a personal distaste for gas may well have been a factor, but it certainly wasn't the primary reason.

*deepbreath*

EDIT: That said, I should probably make this post thread-relevant.
I'm in particular favour of the Flammenpanzer idea.  Given that it'd be a more thinly-armoured Croc, and thus (hopefully) cheaper, spamming them might be a concern. Iunno, one for the balance gurus to nut out.

Also; King Tiger. Not sure how to make it not suck without breaking it. A turret rotation bonus of some sort (via doctrine tree, of course) would be interesting, since it makes the thing able to react to threats in reasonable time, while not annulling the KT's (needed) speed disadvantages. Dunno. Not sure if we have to make the gun buffed or not - it's pretty killy as is. That said,  even if the damage is good, I'm not too sure what the penetration is like on that thing.

[AmPM]

I would prefer the KT to remain slow and ponderous, it's weakness being to flanking attacks.

Up damage, decrease received damage, remove moving accuracy penalty would all be good things to see on it.

[spinn72]

How about the same, non broken KT stats as before?
+33% Acceleration and +33% Turret rotation. It doesn't need anything else.

[Voleron]

How about the same, non broken KT stats as before?
+33% Acceleration and +33% Turret rotation. It doesn't need anything else.

I could live with that. That said, If one has invested the heavy specialisation of a T3 Unlock and a T4 Doc tree to buff that unlock, much like the Pershing and Tiger, then perhaps a few extra goodies to make that specialisation worthwhile may be in order. AmPM's proposed removal of its moving accuracy penalty comes to mind for this, considering how slow and solid the thing is.

[3rdCondor]

I would like to see a flame round for the mortar (instead of the gas rounds) since we all debated about the German's usage of gas in WWII. It's funny because most of the ideas are centered around flame units.... no complaint but just an interesting observation.

[Voleron]

I would like to see a flame round for the mortar (instead of the gas rounds) since we all debated about the German's usage of gas in WWII. It's funny because most of the ideas are centered around flame units.... no complaint but just an interesting observation.

Well, Man has always had a strong desire to set other people on fire. That and Flamethrower units are awesome and rather fit the Terror aesthetic. (Now, If I can just convince people to support flamethrower Bren carriers for Royal Engies,and i'd be very happy. Y'know, the ones you see in the opening WW2 clips of A Bridge too Far.)

...that said, I don't think any of us actually have a problem with gas being implemented in the game - we just sort of disagree on why it wasn't actually used IRL. (Yes, i've been very naughty and off-topic. I apologise.)

EDIT TO MAKE THIS POST ALSO ON TOPIC:
RE: the proposed "Force retreat" offmap -depending on how it's implemented, it could be a touch broken. forcing the retreat of massive, expensive infantry blobs for instance. (Not that offmaps don't already screw with blobs, but at least in those instances the targeted troops have a chance to move out of the way.) Upside is it lets the other player keep vet, I suppose. I don't really know, balance isn't exactly my strong point. Just throwing out thoughts.

[PonySlaystation]

I think,

T3 unlock
Terror sniper, fires slower but suppress infantry, can only suppress one squad at a time.

T2 unlock
Grenadiers can purchase 1x flamethrower
Volksgrenadiers can purchase 2x molotov cocktails.

T2 unlock
Terror officer, demoralizes enemy troops.

Axis flame tank is a good idea, The flammenwerfer is just too fragile.

[AmPM]

I would avoid adding tons of FLAME to Terror, it would just make it a rip off of SE.

Instead I think tough assault infantry with options for real nades and debuffs to let them get close and deal out the hurt would work better and make it more distinct.

Flamethrowers are great and all, but we already have flame grens in another faction.

Things like Gas, even though not used, are scary as hell, especially if it results in your units not fighting as well as they should. Grenadiers with "improved" MP40's as an option would be awesome. Something like a regular MP40 but with .75 moving accuracy. Combine it with a grenade toss and it would be a fun unit.

KT should remain slow and ponderous. Also, turret rotation means shit if you are microing your tank.

[spinn72]

I think the current way that the bottom tree works is that the top line is all unit improvements (Which aren't currently in yet afaik), middle is all artillery pieces (Which for terror will most likely be Blackout, V1 and Firestorm) and then new units (?, Oakleaves, KT).

The devs will definitely stick to this template, as currently i don't think any doctrine strays from it. The t3 for new units is going to stay as a KT, I can't see why it would be removed from the mod entirely. T2 as oakleaves, which means the T1 is the only debatable one atm. Providing a flame tank as a t1 seems a bit too powerful, hence why the possibility of making a t2 in the unit improvements tree a trade off for an existing tank to have flames instead of a gun would be the only possibility for a flame tank.

Making the T3 a sniper should happen again IMO. The old T3 was Kommando Karabiner, and personally i'd LOVE to see its return! It was always a trade off, dmg vs suppression.

[Malgoroth]

T1 terror unit unlock is the geschutzwagon or however it's spelled. And it's not unheard of to put multiple units into one tier unlock. You could stick it with oak leaf KCH in the T2.

Flame P3 would be awesome btw.

Also, sprint for grenadiers. Add it in as a buff to a T4. I want want want.

And, not to sound annoying or repetitive.... But fuck the KT. Bring back the Tiger Ace. In the doc where the whole focus amongst people is to make it a close combat, debuff centric doctrine... A slow ass tank that can't keep up for shit doesn't fit. Also, I hate it.

[spinn72]

The KT is an armoured fortress! It's easily the most durable tank in the game. A Tiger Ace is just another tank, it's not as special as a KT. If I wanted any kind of Tiger, i'd play Blitz!

[Spartan_Marine88]

The main reason for not having gas was two fold.

1. Hitler hated gas as he was a front line soldier in ww1 (lots of evidence for this, including some quotes from him)

2. Both the Axis and Allies were afraid of what another Gas Arms race would bring about (sarin gas which was already created was a scary nerve agent thats vapor could penetrate the skin, today its classified as a WMD), and Gas was a notoriously unreliable weapon. Rain could render it useless, and wind could make it harm your own men.

[Malgoroth]

Tiger ace is NOT just any kind of Tiger. It's a fuckin' ACE. Being a slow ass fortress has its advantages... like being an easier target for stickies/button and fireflys... and taking about an hour just to get from one side of the map to the other....

 But hey. If people would rather sink 18(?) population into a unit that you only call on when either 1.) you're already winning, or 2.) when there's no hope and you want to get some easy kills before going out, then whatev. Keep it as it is. But I find that the thing is just dumb.

[PonySlaystation]

I just think that if you can only have one king tiger then it should be better than the Tiger.

I would also like to see pervitin pills return, but maybe function a bit differently. The duration should be longer but then when it's over they will be useless and get a debuff. Soldiers become overconfident and rush into their deaths. The buff could be like increased fire rate and health, reduced reload speed, cooldown and accuracy. So it's like a rushing ability and when it's over you have to wait for the effect to wear off, like fire up only more extreme.

[Spartan_Marine88]

So it's like a rushing ability and when it's over you have to wait for the effect to wear off, like fire up only more extreme.

I would be cool with that

[AmPM]

Actually, I did really well with a KT start when I was using Rolling Thunder. Because unless they dedicate their entire army to stop it, at the start of a game it is a BEAST.

Anyway, Geschutz is bleh, tbh, it should just go away. It fits better in Defensive.

Also, for whatever reason, the devs think the T1 offmap for every faction has to be a recon item.

So, Recon; Firestorm; V1

Units should be Officer + Shitwagon; PIII/Flammpanzer III; KT

Improvements should be Improved MP40 for Grens; Tank MG Suppression upgrade; 4 man KCH escort for Officer costing resources and 4 more pop, limited to the 3 avail officers.

Doctrine Abilities should focus on:

Assault (mans shoot you good up close and while moving)

Armored Spearhead (resistance to damage, no so much damage dealing)

Terror (gas seems more interesting than flames, SE already does that) Nebel barrage change, Flammpanzer range increase, Debuff improvements


THEORY:

The reason I am avoiding Support weapon buffs is because that should, and does, more correctly belong to Defensive.

Terror being a support weapon focused doctrine was just stupid in the first place, it should act as the heavy hitting part of the axis assault, without much subtlety.

Blitz should focus on surprise and speed of attack.

Defensive should be able to turn an area into no mans land and hold on to are that has been taken.

[spinn72]

Geschutz is a better marder. I'd love for them to stay simply due to the rapid fire rounds and decent MG. It fits with the whole Terror attack as fast as you can kind of thing.

Heavy support was the best t4 in the game before the reset, how dare you suggest it not return!

[Spartan_Marine88]

Kt is really good mid game, after your allies have used some of thier tanks, forcing the enemy to use up some of thier at.


And if gas is put in, do it properly. High dot against inf, huge drift and friendly fire.

[smurfORnot]

I would like old T4 support weapons,since entire defensive cant be compared to elite armor,mp44,who had very good healing,awesome mg42 fith focus fire and some other small buffs...I rly did enjoy terror support company backed up with KT,V1 and firestorm...
I mean in defensive u get extra crippled man,wuuuu,scary,rly scary compared to elite armor and mp44 
with terror you could build better defensive army than with actuall defensive,only thing you didnt had was 88...and you had V1 who can actually take out his artilery,KT fitted in just fine since he is slow as shit and is better on defensive than offensive.

[lionel23]

I agree with AmPm's post that there really needs to be a look at on exactly what each doctrine should do.  I can't stand to play defensive as I get better defensive infantry buffs with Blitz for example.  Defensive should be the support weapon and tough infantry try, Blitz should be about vehicles/armor and assault, while terror should be about WTFPWN things like excessive KTs, 4-man KCH, Storms, etc.

But hey that's just me.  And when are these doctrines coming in?  It's taking a day and an age, still waiting on the warmap.. anyone have an ETA?