[PE] G43

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[nugnugx]

G43 needs a buff.  The upgrade gives 2 g43 only, the DPS increase is minimal as the g43 by itself is a little better than the normal pgren kar (only short range has double the dps).


Proposed fix :

For 50 mun give 3x G43s. That way squad will have one Leader Kar and 3x G43s and decrease scatter angle of G43 to 5 and max scatter to 10.


Vcoh beta patch stat changes to consider :

G43 maximum cooldown decreased from 1.8 to 1.65
G43 minimum cooldown decreased from 1.25 to 1.15


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSQvp1zSZ5I

[smurfORnot]

(one could argue also which is more usefull, slowdown or suppression fire)

there is not much to argue,since suppression is far more usefull.

[PonySlaystation]

I think slow is more useful and yes it could use a cost decrease but I think giving the whole squad G43s would mess up too much. For example FJs with three G43s can be completely devastating.

[cloud234]

Imo whole squad should get g43s and reduce price to 50 from 60, or if 2 should be left, the price should be 35 as you basicaly pay for the slow ability.

I think putting it at 50 is good. Going at 35 would simply create the issue of volks fausts again. Every single gren with G43, slowing u to death with GOOD DPS.

The BAR is more expensive at 80 munitions. Going down to 50 sounds reasonable if things stay as there are. I personally think its silly not to revert PzGrens.

In "standard sized" terms a BAR is 4% of total munitions pool. A G43 is 3%. That is a massive 25% difference, between buying 25 BARs or 33.33 G43s.

[smurfORnot]

you can only slow 1 unit,while bar will supress whole blob of troops.

[nugnugx]

Going at 35 would simply create the issue of volks fausts again. Every single gren with G43, slowing u to death with GOOD DPS.

g43 is not faust , 

 2 g43 is not good dps.

[Tymathee]

it's fine at 60mu imo. it's the lowest costing infantry weapon upgrade already. it's a good gun, the problem with it is that it's not an automatic rifle but it has good accuracy. it doesn't do a lot of immediate damage but the more g43's you've got in a group, the nastier it gets.


interestingly, they are bad on the move. they get a 1.5 cooldown multiplier. They're also best when used in buildings and green cover.

[nugnugx]

it's fine at 60mu imo.

60mu is not ok for what currently g43 does.

it doesn't do a lot of immediate damage

because it's basicaly a normal kar with some more dps

 

but the more g43's you've got in a group, the nastier it gets.

same with every other weapon

[Tymathee]

you say it's not ok for what it currently does but you still see it on most pz grens tho, so obviously it's an upgrade somehow over the kar or you wouldn't see people use the upgrade.

its similar to the bar. it's not nearly as good as the lmg or even the bren in some ways but it's made useful mostly by it's suppression fire. Yes, slow is that good, especially with flame nades and incin assault. slow 'em, toss nades its a nasty combo, even better than suppression fire because suppression fire makes them be...suppressed, which lowers their damage imput but slow just slows 'em and you can still hit 'em 100% with any weapon.

[nugnugx]

you say it's not ok for what it currently does but you still see it on most pz grens tho,

actualy you don't  , show a replay with someone having g43s in his company , or ask someone on forum if he is using them  in atleast 4+ numbers

its similar to the bar.

bar has double dps of g43 on short range ,  so having 2 bars on a squad is like having 4 g43s , and for 4 g43s you need 2 squads of pgrens , 1 bar = 80 mu (2 in a squad) , 2 g43 (4 in 2 squads) = 120 mu

 

Yes, slow is that good, especially with flame nades and incin assault

for flame nades you need additional MU , with bars you just walk up and kill.

[AmPM]

Tym, the G43 provides more DPS than the basic PGren rifle....the normal PGren rifle is 40% worse than the Grenadier Kar98. It is worse than the Garand and on par with the Lee Enfield.

For 60mu it should give 3 rifles, or 40mu for 2.

[pqumsieh]

I think a small price decrease of 5 or 10 munitions could be in order. But I think its important to point out two things:

1) They have identical long range damage and fairly similar medium range damage. So long as you keep them at long range, you negate their upgrade against you. You are arguing that they have double the short range, I am arguing they have the same long range but cost 20 munitions less. Albeit, I would pay 20 more munitions for the boost to short range which is why I support a small cost decrease but not a significant decrease of 20 or more munitions.

2) You should be careful when directly comparing two units. You must take into consideration the context of the unit within the game and within the company design. The G43 is not there as a short range weapon, it was designed to be a long range weapon. As the stats show, it does a good job considering its price versus more expensive weapons like the BAR. Alternatively, you have Assault Grens for your short range assault. Ever try pairing the two together? Slow a squad and move in with flame nades + AG squad. Or, place two G43 squads in cover against charging BAR squads with AG covering...you won't lose that engagement I promise. By the time the BARS close the gap your enemy is down 1 or 2 men and are quick to finish due to lower health on the rest of the men.

Bottom line: A small decrease of 5-10 munitions might be in order; but nothings larger than that in my opinion for the reasons above.

PQ

[nugnugx]

The G43 is not there as a short range weapon, it was designed to be a long range weapon.

It was designed for vcoh, this is EIR.
EIR devs want it to be a short range weapon ,  just look at one of the buffs that come with t4 in scorched earth

' + 20% short range accuracy ,  0.75 moving accuracy , no cooldown penalty on move' - meaning you are endorsed to rush with them for close combat.

also , from long range it has horrible scatter, thx to lower cooldown than kar , it shoots faster but misses more meaning , at long range it is worse than kar.

The scatter of kar, garand, carbine etc is 5
Scatter of g43 is 10

The best is to get close with g43.

I've played alot with g43, it's bad currently.

[LeoPhone]

does scatter really mean that much vs inf?

[nugnugx]

does scatter really mean that much vs inf?

For every 1 kar miss , g43 will miss 2, so double.

[AmPM]

Yes, but not as much.

If I recall, the G43 is actually about the same as a Gren rifle at long range and med range, and only gets really higher DPS at short range...don't ask me why

[nugnugx]

If I recall, the G43 is actually about the same as a Gren rifle at long range and med range, and only gets really higher DPS at short range...don't ask me why

Yep g43 has best dps in short range out of all non smgs,  this weapon doesn't realy make sense, because from long range its just as other weapons , but it cannot compete vs smgs close range.

And having 2 g43s you cannot even rush in close vs riflemans nonupgraded, long range ? you will be just pulling your hair out that you bought 60 mu that is pretty much same as kar.

[pqumsieh]

Why are you arguing for a third G43 exactly? Why not just reduce its scatter to 5 and keep everything else the same. Adding another G43 will just improve its short range DPS as you pointed out. I really think this weapon should remain long range oriented. With that in mind, why not focus on allowing it to achieve that role rather than trying to create the cheapest short range DPS upgrade in the game?

I would rather see a scatter improvement, maybe down to 3 (if that really does change things) as well as a slight increase to long range damage (perhaps up to 4 DPS).

PQ

[nugnugx]

Why are you arguing for a third G43 exactly?

I'm not, it was one of the fix ideas (and 4 not 3 , as pgrens are 4 men)

Adding another G43 will just improve its short range DPS as you pointed out.

and medium and long , it's not a whooping dps increase that will obliterate rangers , it's just a few % per g43 vs kar.

I would rather see a scatter improvement, maybe down to 3 (if that really does change things) as well as a slight increase to long range damage (perhaps up to 4 DPS).

the scatter angle on all other inf rifles is 5 so idk why it's 10 on g43. The only ones that has 10 scatter is smgs like mp44 and thompsons which are close range , but g43 is not a dedicated close range weapon.

Yes it could be a long range weapon , making it worse at short range and better at long would make it interesting imo.
The slowdown would have more purpose as it would be for kiting.

[BigDick]

Adding another G43 will just improve its short range DPS as you pointed out.

only for some very stupid people who charge it like stupid people who charge mp40s

when its used on assault it would suck because the cooldown modifier

that would make it a defensive weapon

charge me and you get penalized