[PE] Wirblewind vs QUAD

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[LeoPhone]

I like the wirblewinds supression radius is fixed. it is now in line with the quad ht.

but it is still very very weak.
lets compare it with the quad halftrack
note that the wirblewind is a doctrine unit, so people would believe it is slightly better than the average unit.

price
Wirblewind  310 mp ; 140 fu ; 10 pop ; 9 pool
Quad           280 mp ; 80  fu  ; 6 pop ; 9 pool

hp / armour
wirblewind  400 hp ; ostwind armour
quad           315 hp ; halftrack armour
the difference in the armour: both get basically always hit. no magic dodge buffs for any of them. quad gets slightly damaged by rifle fire but overall its kinda irrelevant. one annoying feature of the quad: atgs do 50% more damage.

moving
wirblewind  5 max speed  
quad           7 max speed
acceleration/deceleration  of quad is double that of wirble, rotation rate is the same.
wirble has medium crush but quad has a smaller collision box.


now to the most important part, the weapon.
The wirblewind has 5 less range than the quad, this is a huge blow already of course.

weapon damage per burst (long range acc)
wirblewind ~75
quad          ~54
what u see ingame is that the burst of the wirble kills 2 guys of a riflesquad and that the burst of a quad kills 2 guys of a riflesquad
quad has about 1 second faster cooldown but 5 seconds longer reload. however, the quad only reloads after 3 bursts while the wirble does after 2.

weapon suppression per burst (long range)
wirblewind  0.27
quad           0.144
ok so this is nice, but the wirble does not have the 15% suppression bonus vs elite armor the quad (and a lot of other suppression weapons) have.


there is however one thing i did not talk about yet. the cover modifiers.
wirblewind has horrible modifiers vs stuff in cover.

in light cover:
wirblewind  75% less suppression ; 45% less damage ; 25% less accuracy
quad           50% less suprression ; 0 % less damage       ; 50% less accuracy

heavy cover
wirblewind   90% less suprression ; 65% less damage  ; 50% less accuracy
quad            90% less suprression ; 50% less damage   ; 50% less accuracy


Conclusion
the wirble is slightly stronger but the cover modifiers basically negate that again.
but even if the weapon still is a slight improvement it comes at a cost.

first it costs you a doctrine unlock ofcourse but that is not linked to unit performance ingame.
what makes it so bad is the lack of flexibility. The quad can scoot around across the map engaging at the best possible positions. It can fire at the enemy from long range and the great acceleration allows it to kite easily. and even if you lose it, it is super cheap so who cares. the low popcosts of the unit also adds to the flexibility.

the wirble lacks all of this. it is slow, it has less range, it is costly, it is high pop.
the only advantage the wirlbe has is that it can crush infantry. (wow!!!)

[pqumsieh]

Just a note, I don't think that unit is suppose to be innately better simply because its an unlock. I think it is just suppose to provide you more options and variety. Also, when you factor in doctrine unlocks for the wirblewind it really does change the way it preforms. Why not provide an analysis of the wirble versus quad with full doctrine unlocks. If someone is going to use the wirble, it is likely they will unlock some of the doctrines buffing it.

PQ

[Groundfire]

Cover should provide substantial suppression/dmg resistance. Maybe less so for light cover over heavy cover, but we should be rewarding players for cover usage.

Currently, I think that a buff to the Quad/Wirble in those areas undermines that philosophy.

[AmPM]

That is a balance problem though PQ, lets say I have the choice of a Wirbl (Not very good) or Offmaps, or a good unit unlock all on the same Tier. If doctrine unlock units are not better than the basic units then you are ALWAYS better off with Offmaps/Abilities/Equipment over new units.

[LeoPhone]

@pqumsieh
The wirblewind does not provide more options and variety. it is a slower and crappier quad. It does nothing better than the quad does.
If the wirble loses range, speed, increased pop it should be significantly better in something like dps or suppression.


@Groundfire
I do not say quad needs to be better vs stuff in cover, i just notice wirble has much worse modifiers than quad vs cover.

[AmPM]

Leo, what if it had AP rounds to allow it to kill light vehicles?

Would remain unique, and give you another option to help protect the flanks of your Marders/ATHTs.

[LeoPhone]

@AmPM

AP rounds just add flexibility to the unit and makes it do stuff people do not expect to use it for. PE units already proved themselves being not very flexible. the wirblewind should not be different.

What I did in commanders mod is give it a lockdown like any other PE vehicle. it increases suppression but reduces dps.
if suppression is raised as default value it can run over suppression infantry and this is unwanted so it needs to be lockdown.

I brought up this topic because I thought that even with the suppression ability in commanders mod the wirblewind is still really weak. It should get a dps increase vs infantry with the lockdown negating that (But adding suppression)

[AmPM]

It doesn't really need more suppression though.

It's major issues:

-Doctrine Unlock cost

-Speed

-Range

-Cost of unit

On top of that, dead is always better than suppressed, so the IST more than does the job of the Wirblwind.

[LeoPhone]

increasing speed does not make sense since it is a tank, too low costs also looks odd since the size of the unit.

if only dps is increased it will be very similar to IST.
I guess it is then an IST with more range and weaker vs cover.
could be done, but suppression adds flavor.

[pqumsieh]

Maybe a slight speed increase. It is a very slow unit; and increasing the speed would help it a lot. At the moment, it is very difficult to kite infantry with it in comparison to other armor options.

Again Leo, be careful to review the wirble completely against the quad. It does provide PE more options and versatility and with doctrine buffs it does receive a large increase to DPS.

It gains:

Lockdown with +20 acc and +5 sight
Fortress Europe: 25% more health and +33% more penetration.

Even with those, I think I would still support a slight speed increase by about .5 - 1 and an acc increase of 20-30%. Might be better to increase it slowly and go from there as opposed to a large one time buff.

Bottom line: I agree, the unit could use some help in becoming more cost effective. I do not think the problem lies in its DPS but rather its mobility. If its mobility is improved, it can better work against infantry. At the moment, it is very easy to flank and once caught in the line of fire is pretty much dead.

EDIT: its not an IST, it cost less and works completely different, stop trying to make it one.

[LeoPhone]

wont it just be another armoured car with speed increase?

kiting inf can be perfectly done with the armoured car. why make it harder for yourself?

[smurfORnot]

why would you want to lock it down? so atg can finish it off more easly?

and fotress europe is rly not all that great T4...it is just better to spend fuel on marders and mun on falls,than to have him,since  u can supress with mg and covering fire from falls,and they wont die so easly,and are less pop...

[pqumsieh]

Well the Armor car doesn't suppress. So you would get a mobile suppressive unit to take out with artillery. I might ask the same question to you and smurf; why pick the quad when other options are available? I pick it because I basically get a mobile MG that is far more likely not to die. It has no setup time and can kite infantry as opposed to the MG or infantry units themselves. This is not an offensive unit guys...it is a defensive unit used in a specific way. If you want something that can move forward and take out an ATG with a flame nade round then precede to take out 3 or 4 other squads get an IST. The idea is to maintain its role, not redefine it. If you want to redefine it, make it more clear in your OP.

PQ

[BigDick]

yeah a quad is a defensive unit
place it behind ATGs you have a highly mobile suppression tool to make save them against infantry

you get hardcounter to tanks by ATGs and its life assurance by the quad

the fucking difference is try that as pe

place the wirble behind a marder? what you think will happen?

right move up ATGs 1 meter GG

[LeoPhone]

I guess the wirble can be used to defend flak 88?

problem is it fails at doing that. flak is so expensive enemy will keep moving in infantry to kill flak and then retreat. wirble wont kill or suppress in time.

[smurfORnot]

and for what is then flakwierling? lol

having T2 unlock just to defend T3 unlock is just silly,lol

if u want to defend flak,just use IST,it does it great,lock it down,and I can ensure you that no inf will come to that flak. IST will kill,wirbl will supress,and then probably you will see fire up,and flak shooting at wirbl few sec after that...

[3rdCondor]

Remember when the staghound mg suppressed just as well as the wirbelwind? xD