Bars

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[nugnugx]

Bars are unbalanced for todays gameplay.
Their working mechanic and price dates back to some time without a tweak while other upgrades were changed.

Let's see basic DPS on short range and prices of comparable upgrades:

Bars - 18 dps (x2 = 36 dps total) + suppression fire -  80 mu

lmg - 20 dps -  70 mu

bren lmg - 12 dps (x2 = 24) + button - 90 mu


Combination of high close dps + suppression fire allows bars to kill infatry squads 2 to 1. Meaning 1 bar squad can kill 2 axis squads. No other infantry squad is capable of such a feat.

No other single upgrade in EIR allows this. We have mp40's mp44's and lmgs which deal high damage but minimal suppression allowing allies to fight back killing the attacking squad.  While axis get suppressed and pinned from bars, they do not fire back and are unable to hurt the attacking bar squads.

Bar should be either damage or suppression , not both in one because this makes it an force that cannot be stopped by other infantry, as no other upgrade in the game gives such an ability to do both.

IMO to start balancing it a decrease to 1 bar from 2 would be in order to decrease the crazy 36 dps which for comparison an lmg has 20 and 2x brens 24.
Having 18 dps + suppression fire would be sufficient for purposes of suppression and support.

[Tymathee]

and yes axis infantry still run around having their way most of the time, how 'bout no.

Axis have mg42 which deal constant near instant suppression of any infantry that gets near it, while the allies have nothing that does that BUT bar suppression and it's a one time thing most of the time.

maybe a slight increase to 90mu to mirror bren (which btw is a better gun in its own right but just can't fire on move) but to put it down to one bar is ridiculous, freakin pe get free g43's and 2 g43's with upgrade and this all for 60 mu and they have slow which is just as good or even better than suppression fire (you can recover from being suppressed, slow you're slowed until effect is gone)

So let's have a price increase or take away that free g-43 if you want this done.

[LeoPhone]

tym, just because you think the allied HMG is bad it doesn't justify BARs being too powerful (if they are).

maybe the BARs are so powerful allies simply see no reason to use the HMG. why use it if bars do the same job better while being mobile and more survivable too?

[nugnugx]

and yes axis infantry still run around having their way most of the time, how 'bout no.

Axis have mg42 which deal constant near instant suppression of any infantry that gets near it, while the allies have nothing that does that BUT bar suppression and it's a one time thing most of the time.

You can have your suppression.

Just 1 bar instead of 2 so it does not do crazy 36 dps up close.

maybe a slight increase to 90mu to mirror bren (which btw is a better gun in its own right but just can't fire on move)

It's not better Tym , stats do not lie    36 bar vs 24 bren  AND bar can fire on the move.

but to put it down to one bar is ridiculous,

How so ?  You will have the same suppression as you want now.  

freakin pe get free g43's and 2 g43's with upgrade and this all for 60 mu and they have slow which is just as good or even better than suppression fire (you can recover from being suppressed, slow you're slowed until effect is gone)

g43 makes 8 dps on close range.  1 free g43 + 2 for 60 mu = 24 dps vs 36 bar

So let's have a price increase or take away that free g-43 if you want this done.

price increase atleast by 40mu or remove 1 bar

[smurfORnot]

slow which is just as good or even better than suppression fire

[BigDick]

lol

[TheIcelandicManiac]

they have slow which is just as good or even better than suppression fire (you can recover from being suppressed, slow you're slowed until effect is gone)

You retarded bro?
G43 with slow activated makes the g43 a useless weapon due to the less acc while firing and even better is that the enemy can fire back when its activated but i guess you get the same base effect if you have 2 squads of g43s with slow on a single target they do get suppressed.

[smurfORnot]

but u see,Tym has different vision of what is appealing

[nugnugx]

can a mod pls delete posts after my reply to Tym, i want this to stay serious as bars need a nerf since a long time and someone from you guys can actualy see info and not pictures of fat guys.

[Demon767]

LMAO

thats the worst level of bullshit coming out of Tyms mouth ever.

[BigDick]

You retarded bro?
G43 with slow activated makes the g43 a useless weapon due to the less acc while firing and even better is that the enemy can fire back when its activated but i guess you get the same base effect if you have 2 squads of g43s with slow on a single target they do get suppressed.

uhm no? slow is just like it says it make movement slower on one squad

to use that two times on same squad is just one use wasted

suppression fire as you said make people crawling on the ground -> moving slower, shooting less until they are pinned -> don't move anymore and stop shooting completely and works against multiple targets

and yeah slow is obviously far superior

[nugnugx]

Sometimes also when they are pinned i'm unable to retreat squad,  might be a bug on top of it all.

[Mysthalin]

Sometimes also when they are pinned i'm unable to retreat squad,  might be a bug on top of it all.

Happens with all kinds of being pinned, not just BAR pinned. Caused usually by prior orders to being pinned.

Now, there are a few things that need to be taken into account before you universally declare that BARs are OP.

First off : not all fights happen at short range. Believe it or not, they're probably less likely than fights happening at medium range, except in the circumstances of attempting to outflank an enemy MG or when taking on units like volks, who gain very little by being at short range(except with MP40s).

Furthermore - LMG42s and Brens have a higher short and medium range than BARs do - meaning they begin dealing the better level of DPS at longer ranges, which essentially increases their effectual DPS. I think that for this reason looking at the overall DPS under 25 range is the least biased way of percieving the information:

BAR: 9.027
LMG42: 11.295
Bren: 7.332


This, of course, still pits the 2xBAR upgrade at a higher level of DPS than the LMG42 as a base, though the superiority is quite reduced at just 60% higher effective DPS as opposed to Nug's inferred 80% - which would be more true only in a world of permanent short-range engagements.

This already sheds a bit of light upon the reason as to why a singular BAR for the 80 munitions would hardly be a fair trade-off, however there are more.

One of them is weapon retention. Look at it whichever way you want - LMGs are more likely to stay with the original man they came with for quite longer periods of time than the BAR is with his host rifleman. Why? Because of medikits, and of the inherently larger HP/man of the grenadier. You will need to go through ALL of the 320 HP of the grenadier squad(with the squad's other men posessing better weapons as well) before the LMG is finally lost to the WM player. That is not accounting for medikits - which may add as much as two more lifetimes to the LMG, with luck allowing.

BAR squads, however - only need to lose 5 of 6 of the men in the squad before a BAR is lost. Which, adding up - is a mere 275 HP. Of course I am usually very reluctant in using squad healths for anything - and in this case I am no different and will say from the get go that the main culprit in extending the lifetime of the LMG is not the squad health that's required to be lost - but the medikit. Something that the BARs can only emulate with the triage - but not in the middle of battle. And with the low per-man health of the squad, they are more likely to lose men before they are able to heal than the grenadiers are.

Third : On suppression fire. That is most likely the main reason why discussions about the BAR are ever spawned - and I largely agree. The LMG42 does not have suppression fire BECAUSE it has a high level of basic suppression. It won't suppress in one burst - but it will in 2 or 3. Assuming that the target isn't taking major losses and running away.
BARs, on the other hand - even while being quite decent at suppression fall significantly short. As such - they've kept suppression fire for ages to compensate. After all - the LMG42 can suppress all the time! And let's not even begin talking about the HMG42. What would be the best solution? Remove suppression fire. And give BARs a higher level of basic suppression - perhaps such that the 2 BARs deal as much suppression per second as the singular LMG42?

Now, would that not make everyone that much happier?

[nugnugx]

I will concentrate on last part because it touches the issue  bar + suppression fire with which rifles are able to pin infantry , walk up kill and leave without taking damage.

Third : On suppression fire. That is most likely the main reason why discussions about the BAR are ever spawned - and I largely agree. The LMG42 does not have suppression fire BECAUSE it has a high level of basic suppression.
It won't suppress in one burst - but it will in 2 or 3. Assuming that the target isn't taking major losses and running away.

That's the problem with lmg, it does more damage than suppression , before a squad gets suppressed it's usualy retreated or dead.  It could have aswell 0 suppression , and it would be the same.

BARs, on the other hand - even while being quite decent at suppression fall significantly short. As such - they've kept suppression fire for ages to compensate. After all - the LMG42 can suppress all the time!

On paper , in gameplay it's different. In the end bars suppress all the time because you just need to push a button and 2 seconds later axis are suppressed while in my last 50 games i haven't seen a single lmg suppressing (not that i use them , but i haven't seen them from other players, seems nobody uses them in the first place)

What would be the best solution? Remove suppression fire. And give BARs a higher level of basic suppression - perhaps such that the 2 BARs deal as much suppression per second as the singular LMG42?

Might work, but the 36 dps is also a problem, maybe also reduce short acc or something else to bring dps down to 24 atleast.

[Mysthalin]

You need to understand, Nug - that the reason why the LMG42 suffers compared to the BAR at short range in DPS is due to the low relative accuracy.

Which is actually rather irrelevant at this range due to the fact the LMG42 bullets clip with the infantry model even if they miss (much like RRs clip with tanks).

Hence, even though you might notice only 21 DPS for the LMG at this range, it is likely more to the level of being around 30ish (if not even better). The BAR, having a fairly high level of accuracy inherently - isn't quite in the same rowboat.

Also, yet again - remember the fact the LMG42 has a higher short and medium range than BARs do. They will have dealt more damage leading up to the point-blank standoff.

[nugnugx]

ok but this isn't a lmg vs bar thread.

LMG is fine,  while bar currently is not for the reasons stated already concerning SF.

It was a suggestion that lowering DPS  'might' do ok leaving the current SF.

Your suggestion about giving it permanent suppression 'might' work also.  Haven't seen any of them in-game so i cannot comment which would be better.




oh yes one more thing :

Back in the day when suppression fire was needed, the US hmg was suppressing in 5-6 bursts.  Relic actualy buffed later the HMG to suppress to 2-3 burts (it's what we have now). I don't know if the intention was to leave the SF or they simply forgot about it, but since that time we inherited the US HMG change , and the SF was not touched.

[Mgallun74]

lets also throw in the BAR is on one of the weakest infantry platforms in game, Rifles die like flys.. 

[nugnugx]

lets also throw in the BAR is on one of the weakest infantry platforms in game, Rifles die like flys.. 

With current bar that weakest platfrom can kill any axis infantry they please.

Don't believe me? I will gladly demonstrate you.

[Mgallun74]

ya ya ya..

[smurfORnot]

they can rape non doctrinal KHC,tested it...rape them just like that...