[WM] Panzer Kampfwagen IV PoS or Decent?

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[NightRain]

Lately I've been wondering about the effectiveness of the P4. Wehrmacht's all around workhorse.

This piece costs 400 manpower and 250 fuel and its upgrades are MG42 35 munitions, armored skirts 60 and repair kit 50 and having them all is total 145 munitions.

This piece has faster rate of fire than a M4 Sherman, but has less splash.

Is it me- or does this tank lose to a Sherman upgun? I've been watching replays and I never saw a Sherman pounce off from a P4 while P4 pounced once or twice from the Sherman. Also this piece gets ripped to pieces by every anti tank gun around. While it can pounce some, most will often penetrate. PIATs, Bazookas and RRs love this toy as well as they also rip it to pieces quite quickly.

Therefore I'll ask: What is P4s general role in EIRR? Is it only a expensive Ostwind that has slight anti tank cabilities?

Heck this thing loses to a M10 in the long run and can only engage safely a M18 if it can engage it either. Even M8 Greyhounds will gang it. Plus all the buffs P4 ever gets are a rather medicore.  

+15% damage and penetration T3 HEAT Blitz

+10 LoS with MG upgrade 20% accuracy and 33% faster turret turning rate.T3 Panzer Aces Blitz

-10% recieved damage T4 Fatherland Defence Defensive

Rolling Thunder that more or less effects the machinegun and some recieved damage and penetration. T4 Terror

Shoot and Turn in Repair T3 Mobile Platforms Blitz.

This is about it what buffs a P4 can get.

Looking at them makes me wonder that they are quite medicore, so I'm recommending Slight Damage/Penetration buff or Price decrease. What does the other folk think of this underdog?

[Demon767]

I do believe, it is fine at this current moment.

[smurfORnot]

dont use one,as I also dont see role other units can perform better/cheaper.

[NightRain]

StuG is cheaper (almost) in every case and can deal with armor and infantry 2x better with similar weaknesses which are M10 and ATG

[BigDick]

Lately I've been wondering about the effectiveness of the P4. Wehrmacht's all around workhorse.

This piece costs 400 manpower and 250 fuel and its upgrades are MG42 35 munitions, armored skirts 50 and repair kit 50 and having them all is total 135 munitions.

wasn't skirts 60mun? and mg until patch 50 mun?

Is it me- or does this tank lose to a Sherman upgun? I've been watching replays and I never saw a Sherman pounce off from a P4 while P4 pounced once or twice from the Sherman.

easy to explain the upgun sherman penetrates around 92% of time and the P4 penetrates around 50% of time

Also this piece gets ripped to pieces by every anti tank gun around.
 While it can pounce some, most will often penetrate.

75% penetration and 150dmg without ap rounds
and with ap rounds 375% penetration and 187,5dmg

PIATs, Bazookas and RRs love this toy as well as they also rip it to pieces quite quickly.

1.6dmg modifiers for bazookas and piats (without skirts)
so a zook squad will deal 240dmg when it hits and penetrates and piats 288dmg

really insane it get when a sapper piat squad gets an ambush strike of
than its 432dmg when it hit and penetrates

P4 just has 600hp

Therefore I'll ask: What is P4s general role in EIRR? Is it only a expensive Ostwind that has slight anti tank cabilities?

its role is being a shit but more expensive version of a sherman

[Demon767]

ok im convinced, p4 is shit lol

[MittinsKittens]

I'm convinced all the tanks I can get as Defensive is shit. I completely hate using them because a pair of M10's can just easily come on the map and rape your shit (No matter if you're a StuG/PIV/Panther).

[smurfORnot]

they can do same to Tiger

[MittinsKittens]

I've never used Tiger/KT in this mod so I wouldn't know xD

[panzerman]

i think splash needs to be reduced massivly for sherman upgun to make vanilla sherman more appealing. and p4 get slight decrease in price.
i think metagame has seen upgun so common which was a counter to p4 over normal shermans and now that upgun is as good or better at AT and AI that why would u not get it.

if they made sherman upgun as effective at killing inf with its main gun as a panther then it may be balanced as peeps will start using non-upgun for anti inf bringing back the cheaper counter to sherman in p4.

also crom pen bonus for rca needs to be reduced also the other reason p4 is useless.

[Mysthalin]

Dickie, you want to discuss the accuracy and penetration of the PIAT and Bazooka before you write them down as the most pwnsome counters to P4s ever? Oh, and discuss the effects of skirts on the damage/pen as well .

Good effort, much love!

[NightRain]

Dickie, you want to discuss the accuracy and penetration of the PIAT and Bazooka before you write them down as the most pwnsome counters to P4s ever? Oh, and discuss the effects of skirts on the damage/pen as well .

Good effort, much love!

Skirts reduce damage and penetration by 10% as far as I know

[BigDick]

Stalin:

1. L2Read i wrote when they penetrate and hit
2. L2Ambush piat in ambush mode are quite accurate
3. L2Play use attack ground with your piats and
4. L2Flank with zooks

kthxbye

[LeoPhone]

Skirts reduce damage and penetration by 10% as far as I know

25%

@myst
yes, if you kite with the PIV it will beat allied handheld AT. but if they get close they will do massive damage.

compare piv to the sherman: 120mu of AT
allies get: 2x piat, 3x zook.
3x zooks vs skirt piv - 337.5 ; no skirt - 450
2x piat ambush vs skirt piv - 324 ; no skirt - 432
2x piat vs skirt piv - 216 ; no skirt - 288

now, if the sherman meets the same amount of axis handheld AT...
1x schreck vs sherman - 150 dmg


the result is that with the sherman you can go and roflstomp anywhere you want, suppressing infantry with the top mg because it can get close and even crush them. not to mention higher accuracy at close range.

but the PIV is always forced to stay back and snipe at enemy infantry. making it's top mg useless, more vulnerable to ATGs and the gun accuracy worse.

[Mysthalin]

I've posted a side-by-side cost, pool and pop-weighted comparison of efficiency for the bazooka and shrek in terms of damage output ages ago, Leophone. I am more than reasonably acquainted on how the two compare to each other, thank you - and you are welcome to read the article here :

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=17403.180

scroll down to the very bottom of the page. Enjoy.

BigDick - L2Use P4s? There is no single reason why you should be getting shot at by PIATs or by bazookas with them having just 35 range as opposed to your P4's 40 when the P4 is faster than either the PIAT or the bazooka. Of course, the battlefield may create situations where the HHAT can catch up with the tank - but in those cases it's a reward for good play to the allied player/punishment for bad play to the axis. As should be the case.

[LeoPhone]

I've posted a side-by-side cost, pool and pop-weighted comparison of efficiency for the bazooka and shrek in terms of damage output ages ago, Leophone. I am more than reasonably acquainted on how the two compare to each other, thank you - and you are welcome to read the article here :

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=17403.180

scroll down to the very bottom of the page. Enjoy.

BigDick - L2Use P4s? There is no single reason why you should be getting shot at by PIATs or by bazookas with them having just 35 range as opposed to your P4's 40 when the P4 is faster than either the PIAT or the bazooka. Of course, the battlefield may create situations where the HHAT can catch up with the tank - but in those cases it's a reward for good play to the allied player/punishment for bad play to the axis. As should be the case.

All I am saying is that at close range the allied handheld AT is much better than at long range while the axis AT still does about the same thing at any range.
result: the sherman can go where ever it wants, resulting in a more powerful unit while the PIV is always forced to kite.

[Mysthalin]

Axis handheld AT is.. wait for it - 3x more effective short range than it is long range.
Or do you unload at long range with your 2 double-shrek storm squads since it "doesn't make any difference"?

The reasoning behind shermans being able to go anywhere they want as opposed to P4s that were forced to kite has been made invalid with the advent of the magnetic AT grenade.

[LeoPhone]

by the time you reload a schreck the sherman has already killed the squad.

and double schreck storms are over double the price of other handheld AT.

schrecks still penetrate at long range. piats and bazookas need to get close. sure, the weapons might be balanced compared to each other.  but the lack of axis zooks/piats results in sherman > piv.

[pqumsieh]

so shreks still penetrate at long range but with allied at you have to go in close? Does that note qualify for anything?

You can always spot a balanced argument when it takes into consideration all factors

PQ

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Well 2 zrecks do cost 220 if you buy them in dual and when they do you really cant waste them on anything close to a sherman TBH, the sherman un upgunned can gibe the squad in seckonds and with upgunned you just have to do a little kiteing and you are safe so zrecks are really only worthwile on m10s and other "weak tank" unless you are playing against an idiot.