[WM] Panzer Kampfwagen IV PoS or Decent?

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[Mysthalin]

by the time you reload a schreck the sherman has already killed the squad.

Not unless you happen to be the most unlucky person in the world at which point blame god, not EiRR.

and double schreck storms are over double the price of other handheld AT.

Completely irrelevant to anything that's been said. Oh, and they're less than twice the price of RRs.

schrecks still penetrate at long range. piats and bazookas need to get close. sure, the weapons might be balanced compared to each other.  but the lack of axis zooks/piats results in sherman > piv.

So by having a weapon that's superior than either the bazooka or the PIAT at anti-medium tank duty you're at a disadvantage in fighting medium tanks.

Because that's how logic works. Sure.

[AmPM]

Zook pen mod at all ranges is 1.

RR pen mod at all ranges is 1.

PIAT pen mod at all ranges is odd, 2/2/1/1 S/M/L/D.

So, other than the PIAT, they all penetrate the same at any range.

Also, there is no reason to use a P4 unless you just happen to have the required MP and Fu lying around when your company is complete.

Fix, put the Reload penalty back on the 76mm Sherman, make it a separate unit.

[smurfORnot]

Also, there is no reason to use a P4 unless you just happen to have the required MP and Fu lying around when your company is complete.

and still there are better choices...but I do remembre that rare speciesof flower,used them quite well,but pro will use even shitty unit well...

[Jodomar]

Yeah, I will have to say the p4 is quite shitty in its current form. It just gets raped by everything and needs something to be done about it. I think the first step would be to give some debuffs for taking the 76 over the 75. A reload pen, splash pen, more cost, more pen for the p4.... etc. Right now it's just not worth it to take.

[Unkn0wn]

Don't know what changed so much in these last few months but panzer IVs used to be literally everywhere. (And we had doctrines with increased pen, etc at that time too) Everyone and his mother would run 4 panzer IV companies. (I can probably dig up threads where people would advice not to bother with Tigers or Stugs because pz4s were just so much more cost effective) I suppose it's largely a change in the metagame more than anything else.

[NightRain]

Don't know what changed so much in these last few months but panzer IVs used to be literally everywhere. (And we had doctrines with increased pen, etc at that time too) Everyone and his mother would run 4 panzer IV companies. (I can probably dig up threads where people would advice not to bother with Tigers or Stugs because pz4s were just so much more cost effective) I suppose it's largely a change in the metagame more than anything else.

It was back when Improved barrels gave you 15% more pen when bought and HEAT gave you 25% damage and penetration. If I remember the numbers. It gave P4s a chance to compete against other allied tanks.

[Unkn0wn]

That was only Blitz, even Terror and Defensive players were using them extensively.

[NightRain]

That was only Blitz, even Terror and Defensive players were using them extensively.

Probably because of Rolling Thunder was very good back then too. Defensive players- I don't think they ever even wanted to have P4s because they'd get no buffs.

[AmPM]

Don't know what changed so much in these last few months but panzer IVs used to be literally everywhere. (And we had doctrines with increased pen, etc at that time too) Everyone and his mother would run 4 panzer IV companies. (I can probably dig up threads where people would advice not to bother with Tigers or Stugs because pz4s were just so much more cost effective) I suppose it's largely a change in the metagame more than anything else.

76mm Upgun Reload penalty

Doctrine changes

Between the new doctrines being less focused, and you now being better off using low Mu cost tanks and lots of buffed infantry; and the 76mm becoming all around better and cheaper, there is no reason to use a P4 at all.

The Sherman really needs to be split into 2 vehicles. The 75mm variant, and the 76mm variant.

[Unkn0wn]

We're looking into the 76mm Sherman.

[Mysthalin]

The 76mm reload penalty has been gone for absolutely ages now. It's removal has nothing to do with the current lack of P4s - which is accreditable entirely to the meta-game under which Armour Doctrine and RSE doctrine are the most likely doctrines that will be fought.

With Terror slowly gaining playability, and the Jagdpanther edging onto the fray - we will see a decrease in the use of Pershings and Churchils (All variants) - with a higher preference for heavy-hitting AT in the form of AP rounds, 17pdrs and fireflies.
At which point there will be a shift to a more infantry-focused playstyle by the axis to counterract the ATGs. At which point Greyhounds and other lower-cost anti-infantry vehicles will be put onto the playing field.
Subsequently turreted medium tanks (read : P4s) will become a more logical unit to be had on the field yet again.

And the cycle will continue, as it tends to. It is yet again a case of people whining over a simple shift in the meta-game because they can't adapt to it worth a fucking damn.

Also, AmPm - go look at the target tables for proper penetration rates.

[pqumsieh]

In addition to Myst's post, I find it hard to see the correlation between nerfing the 76mm Sherman and it somehow resulting in P4's now being viable. The Sherman is not the problem, it has more to do with the current meta game being dominated by heavy AT tanks like M10's, Tigers, Pershings, KT's, and ATG's.

That said, I feel it would be more prudent to just lower the fuel and MP cost of the P4 while maintaining its current munitions cost.

PQ

[shockcoil]

Myst sounding like the EIR weather forecaster. How's the metagame looking next week?

[AmPM]

It's not going to shift without reason. Infantry heavy companies are better served by high fu low mu vehicles. ATGs, M10s etc will remain the AT option due to Axis heavies remaining the best choice for Axis doctrines. The lower manpower to power ratio and the fewer munitions spent means more upgrades for doctrine buffed infantry.

Until doctrines change to not buffing or requiring buffed infantry to tackle other buffed infantry the P4 will continue to fail. Having it lose to a cheaper medium tank is just adding insult to injury.

Basically, 4 p4s is equal to 2 tigers or panthers in fuel cost, higher in manpower, and twice as much or more in munitions.

Make ATGs and M10s less common, reduce the need for upgrades on infantry and reduce the infantry buffs through doctrines so that you aren't required to run buffedand upgraded infantry to counter and you might see the P4 come back. More likely you will see STUGs instead though, at least they are decent AT.

[AlterFrax]

Personally, I just say focus on making the 75 and 76mm shermans different. Less splash for 76mm and more expensive.

I'm sure theres a way to make the p4 fill a niche.

[Tymathee]

I think the main culprit in seeing less P4's is more to do with fixing the m-10 misfire rather than the 76mm upgun, since I usually see as many upguns as I do normal shermans.

also, because of the mass of heavy tanks lately allied companies are more prepared at wise so anything lower than a heavy will get utterly raped by the mass of AT that's on the field for the majority of allied coys

[tank130]

Snip....
also, because of the mass of heavy tanks lately allied companies are more prepared at wise so anything lower than a heavy will get utterly raped by the mass of AT that's on the field for the majority of allied coys

THIS ^^

There is sooooooo much allied AT, I only bring on my P4's as a last resort.

[Mysthalin]

It's not going to shift without reason. Infantry heavy companies are better served by high fu low mu vehicles. ATGs, M10s etc will remain the AT option due to Axis heavies remaining the best choice for Axis doctrines. The lower manpower to power ratio and the fewer munitions spent means more upgrades for doctrine buffed infantry.

There will be a reason. KTs and Jagdpanthers are both notoriously effective against the high-fuel low-mun units you mention - and as such there will be a shift in allied arsenal to more heavy-hitting ATGs, M10s and Fireflies.

At this point the axis themselves will opt for more infantry - because the manpower and munitions will be eaten up by the high-cost-intensity AT solutions of the allies. It will simply make sense. And considering the buffs/abilities available to both Tank Destroyers and Terror as far as infantry is concerned : they will by no means be disadvantaged in engaging armour doctrine riflemen or tank reapers-tree infantry forces or RSE tank-tree tommies.

Eventually a shift WILL be required for the allies to invest in low-fuel cost anti-infantry vehicles such as the sherman croc or the greyhound to offset the axis infantry superiority. Eventually this same axis infantry will recognise the need for a faster-response unit that can engage the harassing allied vehicles. Perhaps - yes, the StuG might take this role instead of the P4 assuming that AP rounds have been phased out of the metagame and airborne haven't properly hit the metagame - but the KT/Tiger will become deficient in the role of supporting it's own infantry.

Just wait and see the Pershings and Churchil Crocs get phased out. That's when the P4 can start working it's magic again.

[sgMisten]

If I may edge in sideways, I believe it's the meta-game at work as well.

P4 aside, haven't you folks noticed Shermans being less popular nowadays, in favour of crocs/M10s?

P4s / Shermans are generalist units, but as the existing players get better at handling highly specialised units, then people will go for those due to efficiencies.

[AmPM]

There will be a reason. KTs and Jagdpanthers are both notoriously effective against the high-fuel low-mun units you mention - and as such there will be a shift in allied arsenal to more heavy-hitting ATGs, M10s and Fireflies.

Except that the way to get the most infantry and support weapons is to take heavy tanks. So you get the best of all worlds if you get Doctrine Buffed Infantry, some support weapons and such, and a couple heavy tanks to add a battering ram to your force.

There is no reason to shift to P4's, they are more MP, MU and FU for what they can do than any heavy tank.

Even vs a lot of light vehicles and medium tanks, you are better off doing support, upgraded doctrine infantry, and heavy tanks.