General balance & design

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[smurfORnot]

got derailed,LOL

[Demon767]

thats probably cuz axis were better players,and you would loose anyway 

+1

but anyways, isnt this to inciteful, i mean ive only remember two people complain about allies, and well, we taught them better lol

[Smokaz]

Useless thread!

at 9-0 you havent exactly been pushing yourself?

talk about pre-determinating your 'scientific' outcome

too much stacking, smurf. go play against double t3 officers, assault nade spam w / no icon, then come back

[Unkn0wn]

Yea, you're kind of exaggerating with your 9-0 and claims that they're 'easy', go play some better axis.

[Mysthalin]

There's a reason why balance isn't decided by the performance of middle-tier players.

[smurfORnot]

who except me and morka does T4 joint ops? Didnt see them around.

I played with my defensive against almost pure rifles with nades spam,wasnt preety,your volks cant chew rifles so fast,when one nade lands,it kills most volks.

why would I play best axis out there,when I am maybe average allie?

[shockcoil]

The way things are right now, balance isn't decided by any players

[CrazyWR]

need to put together a special balance team of ampm, shockcoil, myst, and elitegren...

[Smokaz]

Play some good axis who strain your units. Not every wehr player melts into a puddle of goo because you throw grenades at him. When your shermans get three shotted, or your rifles get eliminated in the blink of a eye, maybe you'll be able to discover some weak points of basic allied units. Your grenades would fail against a assault grenade company, so hard.

And ONE thing is to play a suicide company and be proud of it, like mysthalin and david. Another thing is making a working company where attrition through spam isn't the goal, but to have a good combination of possible actions and responses.

[Mysthalin]

Smokie, as much as you may trash my and david's playstyle you do realise that our companies are always built planning for every contingency we possibly can cover?

[BigDick]

There's a reason why balance isn't decided by the performance of middle-tier players.

actually he is a very good axis player even when he always says "medicore"  

who except me and morka does T4 joint ops? Didnt see them around.

shockcoil does currently afaik and i had T4 joint ops with assault 2 month ago

And ONE thing is to play a suicide company and be proud of it, like mysthalin and david. Another thing is making a working company where attrition through spam isn't the goal, but to have a good combination of possible actions and responses.

actually your companies are all but not common and representative  for a usual company of a specific faction

[smurfORnot]

Your grenades would fail against a assault grenade company, so hard.

same as my assualt company would fail against armor,but shines against inf spam...everything has it's counters 

shockcoil does currently afaik and i had T4 joint ops with assault 2 month ago

ok,so basically almost no one...

When your shermans get three shotted

why use them when m10 gets the job done in my coy...

And ONE thing is to play a suicide company and be proud of it

suicide works just fine,when I stopped to bother with any vet,I just got more wins,so why not play suicide style then?

Another thing is making a working company where attrition through spam isn't the goal, but to have a good combination of possible actions and responses.

fact is attrition through the spam works very good in many cases,why not play it then?

[Mysthalin]

I'd totes do invisible assault if I had the attention spam to grind up a- COOKIE!!!!

[shockcoil]

The fact that no one uses it is not a balance argument. In fact with the large amount of choices these days you'll be hard pressed to find many people with any given T4 or dual T3 combo though some recurring company unit choices appear (fucking tigers and fucking storms).

[Mysthalin]

David, can you give me your assault nade coy?

[Smokaz]

I'm not saying that suicide or spam company's arent common, they are common indeed. EIRR introduced frustrating pool costs that does very little to counter spam of single unit types. It should either be totally free, or an effective system. The only unit I can think of right now that actually costs a lot to spam is the calliope, and it has a extreme pool pricing. Three callies really neuter your support pool, disallowing snipers, mgs, mortars and atgs without spending PPs. Its a good example of the pool cost being unfair for a single calli, while having merit when you have three of them.

Smokie, as much as you may trash my and david's playstyle you do realise that our companies are always built planning for every contingency we possibly can cover?

I don't trash you as players, nor the playstyle. But it ruins EIRR when everybody catches on like they have. People disregard vet these days, and doesnt even retreat at 1 man with rifles. Plus a lot of these spam companies (Yours too) will be rendered much less useful when they have to attack or defend, showing that they only specialized in winning game-for-game with little persistent gain in ME or R+ mode.

Please don't go into arguing the details of company builds thats not the point. I see smurf alot responds by nitpicking on how B eats A or the other way around. Some doctrine abilities are too good compared to others, thats always been true.

I have to contend against that our companies can't attack/defend, I think my companies in general can attack a lot better than most and well I spawn rush whenever on the defense so that solves that problem. Attack/Defend is very dependent on the start anyway, all it would take for any given company to become mostly suited to the mode is a switching of the 25 pop start. In fact going beyond that, Attack/Defend is more of a mindset switch than a company one, it's the difference between flanking with your 2 grens or having them build sandbag and wire and then sit at the choke point.

Again, details. And details chosen just to turn back my argument. The general idea however, is that a mass rifle company with grenades is less apt at defending than a balanced build of mine engineers, 30 cals, bars etc. The general idea, is that a mass croc atg company isn't as great to defend with as it is to attack. There's way more examples of builds being neutered or short-handed in some way IDEALLY, and generally speaking based on the units - unless a clearly overpowered doctrine choice allows you to spam yourself out of a lack of a unit type.

[smurfORnot]

The fact that no one uses it is not a balance argument. In fact with the large amount of choices these days you'll be hard pressed to find many people with any given T4 or dual T3 combo though some recurring company unit choices appear (fucking tigers and fucking storms).

where am I talking about ballance? I just pointed mere fact that I have very little possibility to play against assault spam with joint ops cuz it seems that I am one of 2 players using it currently.

Dual T3 officer spam seems to be very popular
If you have tigers,you probably have tiger aces.

[shockcoil]

I have to contend against that our companies can't attack/defend, I think my companies in general can attack a lot better than most and well I spawn rush whenever on the defense so that solves that problem. Attack/Defend is very dependent on the start anyway, all it would take for any given company to become mostly suited to the mode is a switching of the 25 pop start. In fact going beyond that, Attack/Defend is more of a mindset switch than a company one, it's the difference between flanking with your 2 grens or having them build sandbag and wire and then sit at the choke point.

[smurfORnot]

attacking joint ops,mmmm...31 pop vs 25 

[Smokaz]

I have to contend against that our companies can't attack/defend, I think my companies in general can attack a lot better than most and well I spawn rush whenever on the defense so that solves that problem. Attack/Defend is very dependent on the start anyway, all it would take for any given company to become mostly suited to the mode is a switching of the 25 pop start. In fact going beyond that, Attack/Defend is more of a mindset switch than a company one, it's the difference between flanking with your 2 grens or having them build sandbag and wire and then sit at the choke point.

How good of you to include another easily abusable mechanic which we will see a lot more of once forced defends arrive with warmap or whatever. Defenders rushing the attackers ruins the entire scenario as well because it allows defenders to start with a scenario-given unfair map advantage and then just press it until the pop difference clearly favors them. It's something that will have to be looked at seriously once people adapt to attacking as defenders. Over at OMG where you can get 4 minute timers by no choice of your own, this is a HUGE problem against competent defenders, they start with a stranglehold and just KEEP choking.