Weapons Cache?

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[Audemed]

Only 10 squads. Considering how many assault spam/g43 spam/bar spam squads one can (does) get, 10 ain't bad.

[8thRifleRegiment]

limiting spam = limiting creativity = repetitive opponents = predictability = boredom.  Sorry but its true.  We already fought this battle once.  

i wouldnt say... limiting spam...

i mean today, morka and i played a 4v4 where he had.... 6 snipers, thats some next level spam. But the way it works now is

Spamming has more penalties than it did before.

[CrazyWR]

spam is not a skillset, it is a way of developing a company.  I see no reason whatsoever people should be limited in how they build their companies within the restrictions of: every comapany gets x y and z amount of resources to work with, irregardless of doctrine. If you force everyone to develop similar companies, there is no point in having 3 doctrine trees per doctrine, you might as well just have 1 doctrine tree per faction and 3 branches-inf/ab/armor for instance.  As it is, all companies in each will be similar, excepting companies that are armor based, which will be seriously vehicle heavy because only infantry-based weapons are limited this way.  As much as I would enjoy more vehicles and easily dominating with armor doctrine and blitz and as PE and RE, that would be silly.  Also, the reason there are less opponents stems far more from the dumbing down of the mod rather than the spam.  At least as far as I can tell.  Most of the old players that have left have done so because things just aren't the same anymore.  Doctrines are heavily watered down, even moreso now that you can't fully utilize them due to the new weapons restrictions, and the only answer for fun these days seems to be either reward points or creating random new units.  Less good players means the ones still around have a harder time getting games because as you say, nobody enjoys losing, and thus avoids them, which leads to them leaving out of frustration.  Anyways I'm rambling.

My point is this: if you don't want spam, you get predictable companies.  If you want predictable companies,  just develop a template for each doctrine using only x of each unit and y of upgrades and call it done.  But that is and will be boring as fuck.

[Groundfire]

Meh, were never going to satisfy everyone.

Just look at it like we are shifting the paradigm. For one, as of yet, nothing is restricting units, just the weapons that they carry, and maybe those units that have their upgrades built in like Assault Engies.

What ends up happening is that because it is not economical to spam a particular weapon to a high degree, this will lead to a detraction of that item used in game, thus making the units which do choose that item more potent.

For example, we can lower the price of Assault weapons because they draw from the Weapon cache pool.  Thompsons and MP44s will become more rare but more powerful in the scope of the metagame because fewer troops will be armed with them. Many may opt for Lightly upgraded infantry, making a single Thompson Ranger squad or a MP44 squad that more powerful.

We expect this system to have the same effect throughout the cateogories of weapons and units that draw upon the weapons cache pool. No one is stopping anyone from using anything in any kind of quantity, you just now have to pay an appropriate tax for your specialization. The tax should not be "Your opponent, should he have the right counter, be able to counter you" because that removes all the responsiblity of a player dealing with their decision to run a specialized build.

[EIRRMod]

Meh, were never going to satisfy everyone.

Just look at it like we are shifting the paradigm. For one, as of yet, nothing is restricting units, just the weapons that they carry, and maybe those units that have their upgrades built in like Assault Engies.

What ends up happening is that because it is not economical to spam a particular weapon to a high degree, this will lead to a detraction of that item used in game, thus making the units which do choose that item more potent.

For example, we can lower the price of Assault weapons because they draw from the Weapon cache pool.  Thompsons and MP44s will become more rare but more powerful in the scope of the metagame because fewer troops will be armed with them. Many may opt for Lightly upgraded infantry, making a single Thompson Ranger squad or a MP44 squad that more powerful.

We expect this system to have the same effect throughout the cateogories of weapons and units that draw upon the weapons cache pool.

Honestly, I think with the cache system + decreasing certain MU costs, you will see MORE of these, due to their normal pool amount being reduced.

I believe this will turn the meta game back to focal strengths - like a lot of AI, AT or HHAT / Armour etc.

But hey, its an ever evolving mod - so we'll have to see.

[AmPM]

Wouldnt this just make the weapons you do choose more useful considering that the game will no longer be oversaturated with them?

Sorry, been busy with Army stuff.

No, not really. The reason being that a BAR is equally effective whether or not half the enemy Grens have LMGs. In fact, with that specific weapon, I would say it is MORE effective with more upgrades on the field due to its cost vs effect being increased with upgraded infantry retreats.

What will be more effective, support spam, vehicles and better basic weapons.

Does it bother me, no, I'll just use a shit ton of Grens/Storms/Tanks. I'm hoping that this, with new doctrines, will allow some more variety in builds. But that will require price changes and such as well.

[Groundfire]

Yeah, no one can really predict these things. Unless the price reduction on Weapon cache pool weapons is substantial, I dont think that it will prompt more usage from them. I mean, it still has to be balanced. How many munis can you slash from a schreck before it becomes OP?

Gotta play with the numbers.

No, not really. The reason being that a BAR is equally effective whether or not half the enemy Grens have LMGs. In fact, with that specific weapon, I would say it is MORE effective with more upgrades on the field due to its cost vs effect being increased with upgraded infantry retreats.

What will be more effective, support spam, vehicles and better basic weapons.

What I am trying to say is that you will see a less net people employing BARs because they will take from the pool, and those people who truly try to Spam BARs will no longer be able to do it, thus leading to more lightly upgraded rifles instead and more reliance on support weapons.

In that particular case, with more lightly upgraded rifles to pick apart, wouldnt MP44 storms and LMG grens have a field day?

[AmPM]

Not so much I think. I think you will see more HMGs on both sides to provide support.

LMG grens and MP44 stormies will still lose to a single BAR squad and lose you more than you kill. However, the lower amount of handheld AT may make tanks more reliable as well as see an increase in ATG usage which will impact the total number of upgrades as well.

I think that the pool value is too small to allow proper balancing though, Weapons Cache should be at least 100, allowing a more refined balance of numbers.

The difference between 2 and 3 out of 40 is much much bigger than the difference of 2 and 4 in 100.

[Groundfire]

Not so much I think. I think you will see more HMGs on both sides to provide support.

LMG grens and MP44 stormies will still lose to a single BAR squad and lose you more than you kill. However, the lower amount of handheld AT may make tanks more reliable as well as see an increase in ATG usage which will impact the total number of upgrades as well.

I think that the pool value is too small to allow proper balancing though, Weapons Cache should be at least 100, allowing a more refined balance of numbers.

The difference between 2 and 3 out of 40 is much much bigger than the difference of 2 and 4 in 100.

Yeah, at this point were all just predicting what the metagame will be, which no one can do tbh.

We'll deff. play around with the pool numbers. A larger pool/refined numbers is more of the model of the old pools that we have now, and they've worked so far. 40 max pool is most likely the default number for the pool, since we havent touched it yet it will probably be changed.

[CrazyWR]

I thought you said you were removing oversupply?  Meaning you are restricting things...

[DarkSoldierX]

I thought you said you were removing oversupply?  Meaning you are restricting things...

?

Its already gone.

[Audemed]

OMG there's a limited MP ammount, and wtf why so little munis? Y U LIMITING MY COMPANIEZ GAIZ?!

You can still get a fuckton of BAR squads without oversupply, maybe some pools ought to be tweaked, but ffs you whine about lack of variation yet the people who do just do oversupply BAR spam + M10 + ATG or similar.

[tank130]

I see no reason whatsoever people should be limited in how they build their companies within the restrictions of: every comapany gets x y and z amount of resources to work with, irregardless of doctrine.

The previous system allowed you to go over those restrictions by using pp. Having a restriction is pointless if it is not restricting.....LOL

If you can not play with out spamming, perhaps another game would be better suited to you. This mod is supposed to be about skill of battle tactics and unit preservation (persistency) not about spam a bunch of units cuz you have no skill.

Spam is not a skill. Spam is not an intelligent battle tactic. Are you seriously trying to convince me that with out the ability to spam, this game is useless?

[AmPM]

Spam can be skill. STuG spam for instance is not very powerful.

Stormie MP44 spam is not powerful.

AB spam with only grenades is not powerful.

Etc.

There are many kinds of spam that are not powerful.

The ones that are, are only powerful due to a lack of balance in their ability and cost. This becomes more apparent as you see more and more of the unit on the field.

[CrazyWR]

I am perfectly capable of playing without spamming.  That is not the point.  I would like to have the option if I so choose.  I would like to play against a large variety of companies, rather than small variations off a similar base repeatedly.  Audemed, you're new here, so I'll ignore the fact that you are ignorant about many different types of builds that have been used in EIR rather than the ones that have been popular amongst infantry or AP rounds armor doctrines players in the last few months.  The point is that freedom should be encouraged, not restricted...

[WildZontar]

I am perfectly capable of playing without spamming.  That is not the point.  I would like to have the option if I so choose.  I would like to play against a large variety of companies, rather than small variations off a similar base repeatedly.  Audemed, you're new here, so I'll ignore the fact that you are ignorant about many different types of builds that have been used in EIR rather than the ones that have been popular amongst infantry or AP rounds armor doctrines players in the last few months.  The point is that freedom should be encouraged, not restricted...

Freedom isn't being restricted? You can make your company to whatever you want it to be like, but those who are using spam and gimmicks are being more punished/restricted than those who don't. Is it really that hard to make a company that doesn't oversupply?

[AmPM]

Freedom isn't being restricted? You can make your company to whatever you want it to be like, but those who are using spam and gimmicks are being more punished/restricted than those who don't. Is it really that hard to make a company that doesn't oversupply?

Actually it is being restricted, and it won't prevent spam, just spam of upgrades. Second, if you can win a game, using only MP44 stormie spam and P4's you are FUCKING AWESOME. Spam does not mean powerful, or even annoying.

With this, the price of constant healing units should go up, it allows you to preserve a much larger portion of your force.

[EIRRMod]

Actually it is being restricted, and it won't prevent spam, just spam of upgrades.

Why just a spam of upgrades?

Units and upgrades now have cache as an option.

Upgrades now also have the option to pull from a pool.  But this wasnt discussed yet, as it may not be needed.

[AmPM]

Why just a spam of upgrades?

Units and upgrades now have cache as an option.

Upgrades now also have the option to pull from a pool.  But this wasnt discussed yet, as it may not be needed.

The point is, that without addressing the core issues with spam (usually a too effective doctrine or price efficiency) this is just a bandaid solution, so you will see lots of similar builds based around maximizing the amount of the most powerful options available still. AKA, spam.

[Tymathee]

okay, so i may see 4-6 assault volks rather than 10.
Or 4 3 bar riflemen instead of 8
6 smg rangers instead of 10

...sounds good to me. It'll make you play smarter, you may start to see more medium tanks and light vehicles. more at guns and more diverse builds like people using mines, mixing up their upgrades rather than spamming one.