[CB] BAR and G43 SF

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[skaffa]

As the Balance Lead I am interested in what the community thinks about certain issues. I might make a topic like this from time to time to see what the general community thinks and to give everyone the opportunity to state their minds. Do well and maybe some day you'll be invited to the private balance forum.

Im currently interested in BAR and G43 Suppression Fire.
I have heard many complaints about SF, on the forums, ingame, on vent, everywhere. If you want, now is the time to voice your opinion. Post what you feel is the problem with SF and how it should be fixed, or if you think its fine and nothing should be changed, post that.

If you want to be heard, now is your chance.

[BigDick]

while bars are already a rapetastic upgrade the iwin button SF comes for free

either making separate bar/g43 upgrade with suppression and own ingame symbols (sf bar for 110mun, sf G43 for 70-80 mun)

or changing these abilities that u need to select a single target squad where suppression/dps will be dealed over time (like old g43 slow just with suppression over time)

[Poppi]

im assuming if SF (US inf only savior) gets nerfed there will be other types changes that make this equal?
Like SF isnt needed if US also has XXXX or if axis couldnt keep XXXX
I barely experience G43 SF to comment about it. I guess MG42 makes too much sense to use in its place.

I dont see bars as a rapetastic as some people put. even at 3 bar upgrade. I dont see axis drop like flies and w/o SF bars arent that scary on a standard Inf guy. I think cheap ass SMG like MP40 or grease guns are more of a rape weapon. Get close and then thats it. Plus infantry men are easy to counter. Ostwinds, pumas, flame anything, just about any tank. People say 3 bars are trololol. But i never seen it win them a game or turn the tide against a spam of inf.

If you want to do standard Bars 70Mu and SF bars 80-90. Thats fine i guess.  Or just one target per use also kind of makes sense.
 But im assuming this is one of several changes that will occur.

[Malgoroth]

im assuming if SF (US inf only savior) gets nerfed there will be other types changes that make this equal?

I'm sure that if SF was removed, the US would get an alternate unit/ability to fill in the suppression gap which the BAR currently occupies.

I've brought it up before... but removing BAR suppression from riflemen and giving the US a new type of infantry unit would go a long way to balancing SF and making the US more enjoyable as a whole.

Option one in my mind would be to make a new 4 man infantry squad (we'll call them "fire support squad" for now) and give them either the marine/AB LMG, or 3 BARs with a suppression fire ability they can buy (or comes standard. I don't know. Discuss). This would give the Americans a band new toy AND would be better than the alternative of just turning SF into a purchasable upgrade for BARs in that it provides a visual cue to the opponent as to which squads can potentially suppress you and which can't. The only thing more frightening than a rifle blob with BARs who can all suppress... is a rifle blob with BARs and you don't know which one (or one's) will be the SF squad.

As for suppression fire itself... it is my understanding that the way the ability works now is that you click the ability, then over a set amount of time the suppression multiplies. So at firsts you will merely suppress, but towards the end of the abilities timer you becoming a pinning madman and can just click on multiple squads to insta-pin them. Perhaps it would be a good idea to make it where the 'suppressionisity' of the BAR is constant when the ability is activated... so regardless of how long it is into the abilities timer, you won't insta pin any new squads. The rate of suppression might need to be slightly raised if this fix were to be implemented. Same goes for the G43 if it works the same way.

  

[WildZontar]

Spartans old thread about this subject earned him many +1's on his idea.

I believe it was a reverse balance of the two upgrades, BarSF became just like G43 Slow and not the other way around like it is now.

[TheVolskinator]

Without SF, Americans will become nothing but cannon fodder. My vote is for a targetable ability or Mals set suppression idea--when I use SF, i want it to SUPPRESS a target for me, so that I can deal my +33% damage and accuracy vs suppressed targets. Pinning them forces a retreat and doesnt allow me to dole out my full DPS potential in that particular fight (since my squad is most likely prioritising the retreating squad, with its retreat bonuses, instead of other squads in the area). A suppressed squad will still attempt to crawl away.

In fact, fusing the two ideas to make it a targetable suppression only ability might be a good fix.

[PonySlaystation]

I believe the problem lies not in SF itself but rather some of the buffs which improves the ability greatly.

How Effective Suppression Fire Is Without Doctrine Buffs
SF without any buffs isn't much special. It can't suppress infantry in Heavy cover, it suppresses slowly and by using SF your squad won't be able to deal much damage (The debuff is -70% accuracy and they can only fire half as fast). So against most axis infantry it's not very strong but against some infantry like rushing MP40 Volks it can work well. But then you have to position your Riflemen and click suppression fire at the right time because it has a long cooldown and also because you have to use it when the enemy infantry is not in heavy cover. And then once suppressed you usually have to use a grenade to be able deal some real damage.

How to counter suppression fire
So it does require some coordination and micromanagement. Just like how it requires some coordination and micromanagement to properly counter SF, which is not very difficult if you just stand in cover, use grenades and support your infantry properly with HMGs and other relevant support units, because suppressed infantry don't take as much damage, so if you have a lot of support as axis then suppression fire won't be as effective, because they will not be able to deal as much damage as they otherwise would. Grenades is an effective counter since they'll be forced to move out of cover, which means they'll die faster but also when they're moving they won't be able to suppress properly.

Another thing to note is that BARs + Grenade upgrade costs 110 Munitions which is more than some elite infantry weapons. It's not a one-click win button.

How Effective Suppression Fire Is With Doctrine Buffs
The problem comes when Infantry doc players have:
+33% Extra accuracy against suppressed units
+1 BAR
+50% Moving Accuracy

As you can probably imagine these buffs, especially when used together makes SF a lot stronger. So the debuff that they gain from using SF is basically nullified and the squad using it will still be able to deal a lot of damage. Supporting infantry will be able to deal even more damage and just be able to rape the suppressed enemy infantry, you won't even have to use grenades, just rush in and kill them really fast. I think also the extra BAR and accuracy buffs increase the rate of suppression but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Solution
Some players need a healthy dose of L2P. If you just use some proper counters, like some of the ones I have listen then SF is not that big of a deal. But if anything is a balance problem with SF it's the Suppress and Manouvre T2 which gives Infantry +33% Accuracy against Suppressed Units. Maybe tune down the buff and add a small but nice buff to mortars?

I also support the idea of having a separate upgrade for BAR with and without SF. SF BAR for 80 Munitions and without for 70.

[Tymathee]

The idea that got the most praise was a slow walking speed much like using a medkit while the ability is active. I feel this is a great idea because it turns it into more of a defensive ability rather than the offensive ability it is now and I was fully behind this idea.

Another solution (I dont know if anyone said this, i'm not reading what anyone else wrote, too many words) and one you can probably add on and expand into Brens is to either make the extra ability into an upgrade you can purchase or a separate upgraded bar (like 60mu normal bars, 80mu with SF, or more to balance). You can do this with brens and any other weapon that comes automatically with an ability.

You can also put the two together to be honest and make it really good and give players options, players like me who don't really use bar suppression or who maybe want to have one that has it and cheaper bars around it.

Lastly, maybe bars and g43 if you do make diff upgrades need their own icon so they're easily identifiable, or when the ability is active an icon appears over the head.

[Smokaz]

I think they are both fine, but i have noticed panzergrens performing very bad lately.

[Jstek]

Personally, allied infantry is so squishy and cannot hold up against other axis infantry without SF.  Unless the allied infantry gets a huge serviveability buff removing it only makes allied infantry that most more worthless.

Setting SF to slow your infantry to a crawl is a bad idea.  Now you can't even keep the pressure on them.  Lets give allies areosoft guns now.

Use a tank to kill allied infantry or flank them or use nades or a MG.  Heck, the axis MGs have the switch that allows it to kill entire squads in seconds. (Focus Fire)

If you must, lets make SF a switch instead an ability.  When its set in SF mode, lots of suppression and very little DPS is being dealt.  And when SF is switch to focus fire or normal mode, it removes the suppression to a marginal bit and your bar gets good accuracy and killing power.  Probably not what your looking for though.

Personally, SF can't be nerfed.  If anything make it better or more versatile.

[Smokaz]

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=6877.15

People have been crying for years?

I remember a couple of wars back when I thought the Axis were overpowered for the same reasons that everyone is thinking that the Allies are overpowered this war.  It's just not true.  The good players are playing Allies mostly because THERE ARE TOO MANY AXIS PLAYERS.  If you could get the newer players to even out on both sides, it would be a different story.

Must we change everything to be more forgiving when it's just one of those whines that come around`?

[Groundfire]

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=6877.15

People have been crying for years?

Must we change everything to be more forgiving when it's just one of those whines that come around`?

+10

There is no justifiable balance reason to nerf suppression fire as an ability (cost increase maybe).

I find it in kind of poor taste to balance an existing ability around an individuals conception of how it "should be used" and under what circumstances it should be used are acceptable.

People dont like it when BAR squads run up and suppress them, me, I dont like it when KCH shrug off the machine guns that I do bring.

Know your counters.

[jackmccrack]

I have no opinion on BAR/G43 Suppression Fire

[Demon767]

BarSF/G43 is fine.

[SpaceHamster]

BarSF/G43 is fine.

Quite the opposite in my fact,

although they do cost a chunk of munitions to get, isn't suppressing squads in one place in order to kill them more efficient then using other weapons like grenades which are easy to dodge?

I understand that you have more knowledge of the stats tables for BAR and G43 but for VCoH bars with suppressive fire in a game with no rienforcing is quite a devestating force (they why it cost 35 munitions to use suppressive fire)

This is so far with my armor commander (I dont utilize bars much but I do make squads retreat or else they face the combat engineers).

[Tymathee]

G43 is too cheap. 60mu and they get a toned down SF for free, price nerf!

[gungun]

G43 is too cheap. 60mu and they get a toned down SF for free, price nerf!

What you forget as always is that, bar has a whooping 18 close dps while g43 8.  Bar also has 7 medium dps while g43  4 or 3.
2 bars do more dps then 3 g43.


Now on-topic.


Bars are unbalanced for todays gameplay.
Their working mechanic and price dates back to some time without a tweak while other upgrades were changed.

Let's see basic DPS on short range and prices of comparable upgrades:

Bars - 18 dps (x2 = 36 dps total) + suppression fire -  80 mu

lmg - 20 dps -  70 mu

bren lmg - 12 dps (x2 = 24) + button - 90 mu


Combination of high close dps + suppression fire allows bars to kill infatry squads 2 to 1. Meaning 1 bar squad can kill 2 axis squads. No other infantry squad is capable of such a feat.

No other single upgrade in EIR allows this. We have mp40's mp44's and lmgs which deal high damage but minimal suppression allowing allies to fight back killing the attacking squad.  While axis get suppressed and pinned from bars, they do not fire back and are unable to hurt the attacking bar squads.

Bar should be either damage or suppression , not both in one because this makes it an force that cannot be stopped by other infantry, as no other upgrade in the game gives such an ability to do both.
My biggest gripe with bar SF is that, that you can pin multiple axis squads with on 1 SF simply by clicking on different unit, it doesn't matter if they are spread out and attacking all from different sides, SF just works this way and you are able to do such a thing.



Proposing of fix:

Make SF target only 1 unit, like the old g43 'slow'. You get a different crosshair, click on 1 unit, and they open fire with SF  suppressing and eventualy pinning 1 squad and after that SF is no longer for using. I think it's fair enough that 1 SF on 1 unit = 1 suppresed/pinned squad.



G43:

G43 current pinning is a mirror of SF which is worse stat wise. The best was old 'slow' imo, it was different, it was fun, it worked in tandem with incendiary grenades, it was balanced because it worked only on 1 unit unlike bars - it was much better than what currently g43 has. Current SF on g43 is a slap in the face for g43 imo and old 'slow' should be brought back.

[ChokingPuppies]

+1

Or maybe make the suppressing rifle do very little damage? Or be unable to move like button, 1 unit suppresses the enemy another one finishes them, real life tactics ftw

[Smokaz]

Herp de derp dam dam do dee rapo ram ram derpedudilu. Dam dam Tym Lionel rupshakka woop woop puddin

crazy idea:  

Use green cover. Even yellow cover will help.



If you're EXTRA worried about being supressed - there's a nice choice of incoming supression reducing doctrine abilities.

[nugnug]

Cover can be flanked and SF used, thus cover is no argument in   SF/g43 SF discussion about this particular ability balance.