Weapon cache update x2

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[Smokaz]

I fully agree with you in regards to the effects of ME/R+ mind you, as do most developers I'm sure.
That being said, to say that certain 'gimmicks' wouldn't exist in a A/D scenario is of course naive. Mine spam and goliath spam for instance thrive in a defensive set-up. Thus while the gamemode is one of many factors that is contributing to the problem, it's certainly not the biggest culprit.

And when is mine spam and goliath spam a problem? It's "annoying" to face. But its only a problem if its underpriced. And goliath might very well be underpriced as it has the chance to annihilate much more expensive units reliably.

There's three culprits. One fake one which is in essence a bunch of QQ - and two real ones. Doctrine buffs and game mode is quantifiable and very real - the mystic ascension of wisdom required to see how 20 fausts for cost are so much more effective than 5 for cost - is not.

[Spartan_Marine88]

And when is mine spam and goliath spam a problem? It's "annoying" to face. But its only a problem if its underpriced. And goliath might very well be underpriced as it has the chance to annihilate much more expensive units reliably.

Even with it being 'underpriced' its still not a problem, after facing your first goliath, you should be alert for more

[smurfORnot]

get a buddy or 2,you all make same coy's to maximize on some units,then troll guys who join you with balanced coys. Okay,I wont have 25 assaults,but 3 of us are gonna have around 50 
Lets do triple Joint ops,start with 31pop each,and just roll over poor fuckers who decided to join,hehehe
GG in around 20min 

[tank130]

Even with it being 'underpriced' its still not a problem, after facing your first goliath, you should be alert for more

Before Cache, you could get 16 Goliath in a company. What counter would you propose for that? - I am not Trolling.

[smurfORnot]

are goliaths rly that big problem? Never saw anyone complain about them.

[AmPM]

Before Cache, you could get 16 Goliath in a company. What counter would you propose for that? - I am not Trolling.

Not clumping all your shit together?

[tank130]

are goliaths rly that big problem? Never saw anyone complain about them.

I have 3 in my company and they are not really a problem at all. I get the odd satisfying kill, but they are not a problem.

However, try fighting against 16 of the fuckers in a company.
If you have 5 atg's in your company - say good bye. Now there are still 11 more to go.
3 or 4 tanks - say goodbye to your repairs - still another 7 to go
3 or 4 spread out infantry - no problem, still another 3 or 4 Goliaths to go
3 or support units - say goodbye.

and now, I still have all my infantry and vehicles to wipe out what you have left.

Problem?

[smurfORnot]

I wish every one of my goliaths hit the target and didnt get blown up before it reaches it 

[TheIcelandicManiac]

so someone is really that stupid to spend all their mun on Goliats and not buy a single medkit or repair on his tanks?

[AmPM]

so someone is really that stupid to spend all their mun on Goliats and not buy a single medkit or repair on his tanks?

16 x 90 = 1440...thats a TON of munitions. Good luck doing anything else with naked tanks and infantry.

I also hear that Goliaths die to small arms fire just fine =)

[smurfORnot]

16 x 90 = 1440...thats a TON of munitions. Good luck doing anything else with naked tanks and infantry.

I also hear that Goliaths die to small arms fire just fine =)

it's additional 160fuel,and you have to add points for 16pios,which are not gonna do much beside buildt goliath,or you can add them mines and flamers,and spend even more mun 

[Firesparks]

weapon cache shouldn't be necessary to begin with.
if the upgrade and weapons were effectively balance then hard limit should not be necessary.
As a dev you have to access that fact a free range system like our is going to have some fault and quirks discovered by the players. Some of the fault ruin gameplay and you fix them. the fun and harmless quirk you leave in.

Weapon cache is just trying to mirco manage what the player can or can not build, on top of pop, man/mun/fuel, pool. You seems to treat any combination of what's not accept as the "norm" as harmless and severely limit the freedom the player have. Might as well force everyone to play with the exact same company.

[Spartan_Marine88]

weapon cache shouldn't be necessary to begin with.
if the upgrade and weapons were effectively balance then hard limit should not be necessary.
As a dev you have to access that fact a free range system like our is going to have some fault and quirks discovered by the players. Some of the fault ruin gameplay and you fix them. the fun and harmless quirk you leave in.

I am pretty sure the guild wars devs have said this multiple times (URSAN BUILD) you just gotta keep tweaking and playing with the numbers, the only time your game is adequately balanced is when all players bitch (not rage) equally.

Players will never be 100% happy and quiet due to perceived OPness, or rage due to loss of a unit due to an ability no matter how fair (more so when it was the stupidity of the player)


While i know certain devs may try to use this as an example of the validity of the WC, it is instead a mighty finger to it. Instead an accusation that things were never EVER really attempted to be balanced. There were bug fixes, and slight adjustments, but instead of balancing units the doctrines were attacked multiple times and completely reworked.

If things had been done properly and they still can be, the steps logically needed would be.


1. Balance units and cost

2. Tweak doctrines so that their theme (some players might call spam but honestly, fuck em) can work and be enjoyed without it being called OP, which it still will by the few players who refuse to adjust their company slightly to counter.

[LeoPhone]

good post spartan.

I'd like to add that with the warmap all player companies will be equal level at all times. so if the doctrines are indeed balanced they won't cause a problem since all players have the same level of doctrine buffs.

[smurfORnot]

I'd like to add that with the warmap all player companies will be equal level at all times.

lets not jump few years ahead,lol

[Mysthalin]

I can still get 16 goliaths in my terror coy, no problem. The thing is - why would I want to? They're a temperamental unit that is very... finite, shall we say, in it's use.

What counter do I propose to 16 goliaths? A single quad. Goliaths are brittle as fuck, and most of the time they will get gunned down by a quad before they reach said quad, even if they're speeding down a road towards it. Even a BAR squad serves to be a significant danger when trying to take out that single ATG with a goliath - unless you can get to the ATG via a road - you're just not gonna get there in time.

There's a very good reason why I cut 8 goliaths from my company in my attempt to make it more viable.

[tank130]

Before the WC, I could build this company:

16   Pios - Goliaths
4   KCH
2   Panther (full upgrade)
1   panzer 4
3   Pak 38
9   Grenadiers
2    mine sweepers

I have this left over:
820 MP / 0 Muni / 10 Fuel

Panthers or P4 easily take care of most Goliath Counters.
Paks or Goliath take care of Panther/P4 counters.

16 Pios for capping.
9 Grenadiers for fighting what is left of the enemies forces that were not obliterated by 16 Goliath. Even if 30% of them failed, it would be near impossible to counter this company.

A few Goliath are not a problem at all. A few Pios are not a problem at all. Changing the price or pop of either one of these is wrong. In a balanced build these units are priced fairly for what they do.

Build this company and there is a problem. That is what the WC is supposed to fix when it is balanced correctly. You can almost build this company now, but not completely. You will be screwed for infantry and AT.

[Smokaz]

Maybe goliaths are just one of those units that are easy to use and harder to defend against than use.

[AmPM]

Before the WC, I could build this company:

16   Pios - Goliaths
4   KCH
2   Panther (full upgrade)
1   panzer 4
3   Pak 38
9   Grenadiers
2    mine sweepers

I have this left over:
820 MP / 0 Muni / 10 Fuel

Panthers or P4 easily take care of most Goliath Counters.
Paks or Goliath take care of Panther/P4 counters.

16 Pios for capping.
9 Grenadiers for fighting what is left of the enemies forces that were not obliterated by 16 Goliath. Even if 30% of them failed, it would be near impossible to counter this company.

A few Goliath are not a problem at all. A few Pios are not a problem at all. Changing the price or pop of either one of these is wrong. In a balanced build these units are priced fairly for what they do.

Build this company and there is a problem. That is what the WC is supposed to fix when it is balanced correctly. You can almost build this company now, but not completely. You will be screwed for infantry and AT.

This company would get DESTROYED by light vehicle spam or any half decent player that keeps his units spread and capping.

[Unkn0wn]

The pioneer upgrade spam issue could imo be easily fixed by moving all 'engineer' type units to the support pool, which is a much smaller pool to begin with.