Sniper vs Storms

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[Mysthalin]

The only way a sniper will survive a decent 3xbike rush is if it is in front of the support weapons - not behind. If you're behind them there's nothing easier than just attacking from an angle the support weapons don't cover. The role is reversed when facing storms - you want the storms to run into the supporting units first, so they have to be further out than in the case of an imminent bike rush.

Microing 3 bikes around good support is not an easy task either.

Blob select, blob move around side of map, blob move towards centre to get sniper. Not really much more micro you can do with that - and requires precisely 3 clicks, for 9 total actions. A storm squad, I assure you, will require quite a bit more than that to effectively dance around enemy defenses.

Tank, you are aware of the main differences between a calliope and a sniper, right? One is a big-ass hunk of metal that you will generally find exactly where you would expect it to be, with no support whatsoever.

The other thing is a cloaked, sneaky unit which's position you can never really be sure of, but which is covered by quite extensive support due to the simple fact it's so fragile on it's own.

[PonySlaystation]

Well maybe not kill the Calliope but they can fire their schrecks before any kind of reprisal, because you can't have units scouting the entire map. But with the sniper you have units really close to it to protect it so it doesn't matter if they come from behind, if you have units covering it then it's not a problem.

The basic thing to do is to have an HMG behind to cover your sniper and infantry so that if he comes from behind with stormies he still has to deal with the HMG first or get supressed. Then you have two infantry squads infront of your sniper preferably in cover while the sniper deals most of the damage to enemy troops ahead of you.

So if he comes with a stormie squad from behind then you have both the HMG and the Infantry who can easily mobilize to save the sniper. And this is just if you a very basic defense, very few units to support it, you should have more than that which is where your teammates come in.

[tank130]

Well maybe not kill the Calliope but they can fire their schrecks before any kind of reprisal, because you can't have units scouting the entire map. But with the sniper you have units really close to it to protect it so it doesn't matter if they come from behind, if you have units covering it then it's not a problem.

But again, you are missing the point.  I said the storms will not survive (most likely) but the sniper will be dead.

[tank130]

Tank, you are aware of the main differences between a calliope and a sniper, right? One is a big-ass hunk of metal that you will generally find exactly where you would expect it to be, with no support whatsoever.

The comparison to the Callie was in response to a really dumb comparison made by Pony. It really has ZERO to do with this discussion tbfh. I am not even sure why I wasted my time responding to it.....

Anyway: I agree partly with you, but not completely.

The Callie can be any where on the map between it's spawn and it's front lines. I agree, it will more than likely not be supported, but you have a VERY large area to crawl around SLOWLY to find it.

The sniper on the other hand is MUCH easier to pin point. Unless the allied player is a noob, he is going to be supporting his sniper. That means you just need to find the support to find the general area of the sniper. Finding the support is easy because it is going to be close to the front lines. If it is not, the sniper is useless because it is out of range behind the support.
If the allied player never fires his sniper, then it is going to be hard to actually find and kill it. However, if he is not shooting it, then it's not that big of a threat.

Tripple bike and jeep call ins are always the best anti sniper call in, but I still think you are giving it a little more credit than it deserves. Many people here claim I am a shitty player and I keep my sniper alive from that threat. Not every time, but more often than not so far. So lets not get to over confident with the triple bike call in......

The bottom line here is:

Sniper - 540MP / 200 Muni - 7 pop (very low damage)
Storms - 300 MP - 5 pop (much higher damage)

Both have the exact same cloak and sight to cloaked units. The cheaper low pop storms can also be upgraded to both AT or AI capabilities.

The issue is not how to counter them or use them. We can argue all day long on how to use them and support them; on both sides of the equation.

The issue is a massive imbalance between two cloakable units.

For example: Storms with x4 mp40 - 300MP 130Muni

Can you show me how the sniper is more powerful than these storms?
The way I see it; they both cloak and move at the same speed. They will both kill an enemy support unit in the same amount of time.

The storms have to be closer to their target to kill it, but do not require as much support.

No matter how you slice it, these two units are very similar in their strengths, but vastly diffent in thier weakness and cost.

[nikomas]

Snipers and storms are similar in their strenghts...?
One is a ninja, the other a deadeye... heh


Anyway, the thing is the sniper is supposed to be extremly vurnerable in close range, if anything gets to close range you are pretty fucked, this includes stormtroopers... And as someone who loves playing blitz, it's not the easiest thing to do.

[PonySlaystation]

The storms are not killing machines unless you equip them with expensive weapons and even then the sniper is able to deal much more damage. There is no inbalance.

[tank130]

The storms are not killing machines unless you equip them with expensive weapons and even then the sniper is able to deal much more damage. There is no in balance.

Care to show exactly how the sniper is dealing much more damage than storms with x4 mp40's?

[nikomas]

Care to show exactly how the sniper is dealing much more damage than storms with x4 mp40's?

Either you have not used the StG44 storms that much, or do not use snipers all that well...
Snipers net many more kills on average than stormtroopers, and they are able to pick off more expensive units easier.

[tank130]

Either you have not used the StG44 storms that much, or do not use snipers all that well...
Snipers net many more kills on average than stormtroopers, and they are able to pick off more expensive units easier.

I average 15 to 20 kills per game with my snipers. Not awesome, not bad....

I need some information before I can fully respond to your statement. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If I kill the 3 dudes manning a Pak with my sniper, that counts as 3 kills. If a storm squad kills the 3 guys manning a 57mm, that counts as one kill.
If that is correct, the sniper should get triple the kills of a storm squad on average. But in reality, they are killing exactly the same number of units/weapons.

In fact, if I put my sniper in jeopardy to kill just one man of a pak crew, the pak remains a threat. However, if I put my storms in jeopardy to take out a 57, the 57 is no longer a threat.

Wouldn't that mean the sniper is doing triple the amount of work to take out the same threat?

[Audemed]

Uh, how does killing 3 guys with a storm squad = 1 kill?

[Smokaz]

I have a solution! Make storms 10 cache, and snipers 0. This shit is OP. No more of these assholes with storm spam owning everybody. To make up for lack of skill.

[NightRain]

How come I can't see any reason to rage if a stormtrooper squad finds my sniper and cuts it down? If the sniper is what people call 'properly' used it is 'behind' support weapons wouldn't it then be supported? As far as I know proper line has always infantry scouting around for flanks and ambushes. Even barbwire would work.

I don't think there is any defined 'proper' use for a sniper. I wont mind to run my sniper decloaked around with a infantry blob and that'd be my proper use as it gots the cover vs everything but counter snipe.

[nikomas]

I average 15 to 20 kills per game with my snipers. Not awesome, not bad....

I need some information before I can fully respond to your statement. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If I kill the 3 dudes manning a Pak with my sniper, that counts as 3 kills. If a storm squad kills the 3 guys manning a 57mm, that counts as one kill.
If that is correct, the sniper should get triple the kills of a storm squad on average. But in reality, they are killing exactly the same number of units/weapons.

In fact, if I put my sniper in jeopardy to kill just one man of a pak crew, the pak remains a threat. However, if I put my storms in jeopardy to take out a 57, the 57 is no longer a threat.

Wouldn't that mean the sniper is doing triple the amount of work to take out the same threat?

I dont really understand your point at all to be honest, if you are trying to say that the sniper is doing more work/is exposed to more danger, please reconcider...

It takes 2 sniper shots to kill an at gun, and the sniper can do it from a "Safe" distance...
The stormtrooper squad has to do it from up close, given that AT guns are support weapons they are rarely if ever far from support, and the stormtrooper squad will normally come under fire as soon as it attacks the ATG.

15-20 is more kills than a stormtrooper squad will average in a match, this is a StG44 stormtrooper squad mind you. The issue is not their survivability or power, it's the fact that whatever they do, they need to be close to it.

Besides, if you use AT storms to shreck an AT gun, you get a vehicle kill, otherwise you'll have the 2-3 kills the sniper gets on the storms... what you said there really made no sense at all...

[BigDick]

I average 15 to 20 kills per game with my snipers. Not awesome, not bad....
....
Wouldn't that mean the sniper is doing triple the amount of work to take out the same threat?

20 kills is good and its not just the amount of kills but also what kind of reward you gain and if it comes out alive....a storm squad need to be close range to do something so its hard to support while a sniper does its kills longrange

furthermore a sniper is a great bait unit to get stuff into the "killing zone"
overall i would consider it as the most powerful non doctrinal unit

i currently have just a 6 sniper company but i have some ideas for a 7 sniper company so if you want to taste some sniper power im up for that 

[Smokaz]

Yes, we do.

[tank130]

I guess I worded my question / statement incorrectly.

My questions is: If I take out an ATG crew with my storms with x4 mp40's, would I be scored with 2 kills (the 3rd dude retreats). I think you are only scored for one, but that's what I need confirmed.

[BigDick]

you are killing weapon_crew which gives 1xp each

if you kill 2 men and the third retreats you will get 2 xp and if he does not made it out you will get 3xp

but thats all low if you kill a gren/ranger guy you get 2 xp for that guy and for a stormtrooper guy u get 2.5 xp

[TheVolskinator]

Tank. While I don't doubt this is all grounded in good reason, even I usually don't have too too much trouble with storms being used as a countersnipe. I just keep my screen moving about and my sniper has an HT and a jeep by default, the jeep either providing Los (for mobility's sake most players wont cloak until theyre reasonably close to wherever the hell they're going) or driving in random circles. Hell, Ive cock-blocked goliaths (fail 3v3 on red ball two days ago) even from you with the jeep, while being used in concert with storms from someone else.

It pays to stay mobile, I cant count the number of lolWTF moments when my sniper was squashed by a P4 that wasnt even looking for it. You can only evade so many things when you're slower then everything else (while cloaked). Oh, and decent sniper users will keep mines handy--when a mine randomly explodes and you don't see anything there, chances are either a sniper, storm, or (horribly broken) moving cloak fal ran over it.

I don't see this as a problem, as nilla storms are few and far between. Their main use lies in alpha-strike pairs of dual shreck'd calls, not lol'ing around trying to ambush BAR riflemen or snipers with only rifles and maybe a medkit.

Hate quoting myself. Tank, storms arent a 'derp EZcounter' to snipers. Most of the time youll detect them, if you dont, then its luck of the draw. Your argument is like saying its broken to have a well microed TD zip in and snipe someones tank as it makes a getaway for a far lower cost and a different set of strengths and weaknesses. *Most players wont waste storms on a sniper, theyll bike it, countersnipe it, arty it, offmap it, or avoid it.*

[Smokaz]

In OMG they have a spotter unit for infantry doctrine, a cloaked 3 pop guy without a gun that walks around. It's pretty kewl. Here in EIRR the sniper is too expensive to be used just as a forward scout. If he isn't scouting there's no reason for him to close enough for stormtroopers to kill him in a normal way.

Airborne sniper is a slightly better choice vs stormtrooper players as well as he can dodge more small arms and fireup back to your lines. I would try him Tank

[tank130]

In OMG they have a spotter unit for infantry doctrine, a cloaked 3 pop guy without a gun that walks around. It's pretty kewl. Here in EIRR the sniper is too expensive to be used just as a forward scout. If he isn't scouting there's no reason for him to close enough for stormtroopers to kill him in a normal way.

Airborne sniper is a slightly better choice vs stormtrooper players as well as he can dodge more small arms and fireup back to your lines. I would try him Tank

I think you missed the situation or point I am trying to get across. This is not a call for advice on how to counter Storms or what type of sniper is best used in certain situations.

Here is the scenario:

Front line - HMG
Sniper behind HMG
Rifles behind Sniper but very close behind
ATG behind Rifles

Cloaked storms flank and move in between rifles & HMG. The HMG and ATG are not moving, so the storms only have to watch out for the rifles moving with the sniper. (it would be stupid to move the sniper with out moving it's support close by.
Sniper fires, Cloaks know exactly where it is and close in. 540MP / 200 Muni - 7 pop sniper can not see the 300 MP - 5 pop (much higher damage) cloaked storms until the same exact time the storms decloak it.
Cheap storms are dead, but so is the sniper.

The person using the storms had exactly the same amount of micro needed to use a sniper properly.
The person using the sniper also invested a shit ton of resources to support the sniper ( because you are a fucktard if you don't)
The storm user did not need any support.

The issue here is a 300 Mp 5 pop unit have the exact same sight and cloak ability as a 540MP / 200 Muni - 7 pop unit.


** waits for some fucking moron to post another way to support the sniper....... completely missing the fucking point of the thread.