Evangelics in Sweden FTW!

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[PonySlaystation]

Not true, their moral values are as varied as those of religious people as is their capability for common sense.

Except religious people often base their moral values on a book.

[Sachaztan]

no it didn't, it had more to do with land, wealth and power. they just used religion as a juxtaposition.

just like some arabs are using islam as an excuse to blow stuff up

Those had more to do with getting an influx of wealth and access to trade lanes in order for the Church and Nobility of Europe to pull themselves out of an economic dead end, and it worked.

You honestly and seriously believe that the hundreds of thousands of men, women and children that joined the crusade did so for money and power?

[Tymathee]

You honestly and seriously believe that the hundreds of thousands of men, women and children that joined the crusade did so for money and power?

All of the ones that joined? no, the ones that started it? yes as well as some of the ones who joined it.

Who wouldn't want to go and slaughter people you feel are inferior to you and it's sactioned by the church! I mean c'mon...if the american government said "you can go and kill as many arabs in the name of God as you want and take their land" you dont' think some will do it just for the thrill of it lmao

[Sachaztan]

All of the ones that joined? no, the ones that started it? yes as well as some of the ones who joined it.

Who wouldn't want to go and slaughter people you feel are inferior to you and it's sactioned by the church! I mean c'mon...if the american government said "you can go and kill as many arabs in the name of God as you want and take their land" you dont' think some will do it just for the thrill of it lmao

There's absolutely no power and wealth motivation for joining the crusades. Most that joined had to sell everything they owned to be able to afford it.

Seriously where do you get your ideas from?

http://historymedren.about.com/od/crusades/p/crusadesbasics.htm

"Crusader Motivations:

There were as many different reasons for crusading as there were crusaders, but the single most common reason was piety. To crusade was to go on pilgrimage, a holy journey of personal salvation. Whether that also meant giving up virtually everything and willingly facing death for God, bending to peer or family pressure, indulging blood lust without guilt, or seeking adventure or gold or personal glory depended entirely on who was doing the crusading."

[Tymathee]

i could swear some of the motivations i said were in that sentence...i didn't say everyone did it for those reasons but omg look, they're there!

Note I said "SOME" not all, not most SOME of the ones that joined it.

[DarkSoldierX]

You honestly and seriously believe that the hundreds of thousands of men, women and children that joined the crusade did so for money and power?

I believe they are talking about the leaders of the crusades, not the fighters themselves.

Its like how a soldier can join to strengthen his country, while a politician secretly can push the war for his own personal gain in power.

[Sachaztan]

I believe they are talking about the leaders of the crusades, not the fighters themselves.

Its like how a soldier can join to strengthen his country, while a politician secretly can push the war for his own personal gain in power.

And without these hundreds of thousands of religions zealots would the crusades have ever happened?

Case in point, the crusades have VERY much to do with religion.

[Spartan_Marine88]

And without these hundreds of thousands of religions zealots would the crusades have ever happened?

Yes

as its rarely the zealots who start it. Its those above who do, it the guy who generally is in it for power doesn't start it most of those people are generally content with gathering together and ignore the outside world.


(fanatics tend to also be un-educated and indoctrinated)

[DarkSoldierX]

And without these hundreds of thousands of religions zealots would the crusades have ever happened?

Case in point, the crusades have VERY much to do with religion.

Your missing AMPM's point, it has much to do with religion, but it wasn't religion itself that sparked it.

Like nukes have alot to do with science, but it wasn't science itself that sparked the creation of the nuke.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

Except religious people often base their moral values on a book.

I reallysdon't recall the part in the "book" where it says you are freely able to torture, maim, and otherwise kill for the hell of it like some psychopaths do. People need to start realizing that religion itself is not the cause but simply the excuse. That point seems to have been ignored in any reasonable argument put forth thus far.

In addition, Sach, you fail to mention at all that a large percentage of crusader knights were comprised of the former banditry and mercenary groups who had been generally having their way with Europe. In fact, one of the reasons the First Crusade began was to send them off to do something productive. Religion was used as an EXCUSE here, an excuse to gain an end.

All I'm really seeing from the opposing side here is a whole lot of minute nitpicking and a major avoidance of the main issue.

[Spartan_Marine88]

All I'm really seeing from the opposing side here is a whole lot of minute nitpicking and a major avoidance of the main issue.

Thats because that is all there really is. Humans act as humans do, we won't change. We will use every excuse we can to validate what ever we do, and people will believe and do what they want.

Whether or not you say your healing someones mind, or exercising demons from their body the truth is that your just a sick twisted fuck who likes stabbing someone with a hot jagged needle and found a way to get out of going to jail

[Sachaztan]

In addition, Sach, you fail to mention at all that a large percentage of crusader knights were comprised of the former banditry and mercenary groups who had been generally having their way with Europe. In fact, one of the reasons the First Crusade began was to send them off to do something productive. Religion was used as an EXCUSE here, an excuse to gain an end.

lololololololololol

And what would they be doing in the crusade if not for some manner of religious cause?

If they weren't religious fanatics (or hired by another fanatic) they would just stay home and abuse the manpower shortage that could be used to stop them from "having their way with europe".

[Sachaztan]

Thats because that is all there really is. Humans act as humans do, we won't change. We will use every excuse we can to validate what ever we do, and people will believe and do what they want.

Whether or not you say your healing someones mind, or exercising demons from their body the truth is that your just a sick twisted fuck who likes stabbing someone with a hot jagged needle and found a way to get out of going to jail

The problem is that religion is such an excellent tool for these twisted fucks to get other people that would otherwise be ordinary human beings to perform absolutely atrocious deeds.

I'm pretty sure there's no other tool so suited for this in the world than religion.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

What about greed or insanity?

You finally seem to understand that religion in this case is used as a tool. If a carpenter uses a hammer to create a house, and a murderer uses a hammer to kill someone, does this mean a hammer is in itself an evil thing?

[Spartan_Marine88]

I'm pretty sure there's no other tool so suited for this in the world than religion.

Ideology, land (Alsace-Loraine), or just the good old fashioned they got more then we do have all been used to excess

[Sachaztan]

What about greed or insanity?

You finally seem to understand that religion in this case is used as a tool. If a carpenter uses a hammer to create a house, and a murderer uses a hammer to kill someone, does this mean a hammer is in itself an evil thing?

How about nukes? While nukes can be used as a deterrence against war I think we can all agree that the survival of mankind would have far better odds without them.

And without religion, the world would be a better place. You can get every single one of the positive aspects of religion from something far less detrimental to humanity. Ethics, community, hope...everything can be gotten some place else. And this is why religion as a tool is more harm than good. Just like the tool of nukes.

[Sachaztan]

Ideology, land (Alsace-Loraine), or just the good old fashioned they got more then we do have all been used to excess

Land is not a tool or any kind of ideology. It's a resource, just like the last part.

You have to be more specific about the ideology. What manner of ideology can tangent or trump the manner of which religion can be used to make ordinary people perform atrocious acts?

[Sachaztan]

Yes

as its rarely the zealots who start it. Its those above who do, it the guy who generally is in it for power doesn't start it most of those people are generally content with gathering together and ignore the outside world.


(fanatics tend to also be un-educated and indoctrinated)

no they wouldn't. Without the believers the crusades would have just stopped dead in their tracks. The church would have said "smite the heathens!" and everyone would just be like "Nah no thank you, I'd rather not sell all my possessions and head out to most likely die far away from home with none to very little possibility of gaining something in the material world from it"

[Vermillion_Hawk]

How about nukes? While nukes can be used as a deterrence against war I think we can all agree that the survival of mankind would have far better odds without them.

And without religion, the world would be a better place. You can get every single one of the positive aspects of religion from something far less detrimental to humanity. Ethics, community, hope...everything can be gotten some place else. And this is why religion as a tool is more harm than good. Just like the tool of nukes.

See, and here it boils down not to universal facts, but personal preference. Tools serve the purposes of their owners, and nothing more. How about we rid the world of guns as well, since they have the potential to harm mankind? Violence can be found somewhere else, right?

As I said, it's all personal preference. I don't recall any churches hosting slave labour facilities or internment camps, but rather food drives and homeless shelters.

Evidently you've had some sort of expereince that has disillusioned you towards a bias against organized religion, and that's fine. Just don't go spouting shit about it like Jesus himself regularly massacres entire cities' worth of people.

[PonySlaystation]

You finally seem to understand that religion in this case is used as a tool. If a carpenter uses a hammer to create a house, and a murderer uses a hammer to kill someone, does this mean a hammer is in itself an evil thing?

If the hammer convinced someone to commit murder then it is indeed a problem. However a hammer does no such thing and the term tool has many meanings, which is why you can't compare religion to a hammer.