Proposed stormtrooper change

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[TheWindCriesMary]

Here's the idea.

Remove double schreck ability. No one will QQ about Stormtroopers ever again.

Then people will complain they are underpowered.

Personally I don't think there has been a single good reason to nerf or buff stormtroopers from their current state. I am absolutely terrible at using double shrek storms, but I don't see that as justification for me starting a thread saying they should be buffed.

On the same token, those that are terrible at countering them (which requires only the slightest modicum of strategy) shouldn't see that as justification for starting a thread saying they should be nerfed.

[Heartmann]

I have to say that I agree with wind on this one;

There are a massive amount of builds and units you have to counter a specific way or with a specific unit Or both in order for the counter to out weigh the cost of the unit harassing your front lines.

I mean that's one of the biggest reasons did is fun, is the fact that you can never entirely know what you are going to face, which gives you the option to take a risk,
of not spending thos extra resources on minesweepers and jeeps as an example And get an extra mg or whatever, but be weaker when other players have chosen a build that your  oy could not handle due to that risk and therefore in that battle a obvious weakness!

Also the fact of the matter is that shrek storms fitt perfectly with blitz tactics, just look at the battle of the bulge. Where Germans used paradropped inf disguised as American officers and maintanece to cause confusion and disrupt the enemies front line.

Now we apply a similar version of that here and that is cloaked units that sneak past your defensive line in order to disrupt and cause confusion for the tanks and lv to break through, which is a form of blitz tactics

[NightRain]

A single double schreck squad isn't bad or broken. It provides a lot of ambush damage by itself.

Two double schreck squads is a broken one. The ability to provide so much damage that you will alpha strike units for 10 pop. No other unit combination is capable of doing this much damage at a such pop efficiency. With veterancy you will be able to one shoot Shermans from ambush.

That is the problem. Easiest solution: Remove double schreck or give them the old nerfed PE schrecks when double schrecks are purchased to lower the sick damage output they give.

[Dnicee]

change them and im one of those that will probably leave.

Imo to many wierd changes has been done already, feel sorry for eirrmod that youre running the mod into the ground.

like, fireflies, m18s, stuhs, nebels, stukas and so much more.

Stop breaking units please.

pieace of shit balance team

[Scotzmen]

change them and im one of those that will probably leave.

Imo to many wierd changes has been done already, feel sorry for eirrmod that youre running the mod into the ground.

like, fireflies, m18s, stuhs, nebels, stukas and so much more.

Stop breaking units please.

pieace of shit balance team

In all honesty, i feel that the balance team is listening to the community, and is currently being more productive than say, someone like you. I'd really love to see you lead the balance team. I'd give it a few days before people call you cunt. Put yourself in the Balance teams shoes. I know it may be hard for you to think before you talk, but i feel that your smart enough to grasp the idea.

I honestly don't like people who slag of the members of the mod. But this has been discussed several tims before. They do this for free, so they can dictate what gets done and when it gets done by. You think they there going to release stuff and get shit done faster if your being a cunt? That was a rhetorical question, if you hadn't noticed.

[Spartan_Marine88]

fireflies, nebels, stukas

Firefly change?

Nebel only got building crit removed...

And stuka hasn't been changed lol it was terrible in vcoh also

[I2ay]

Nikomas mad Storms killed some vetted unit of his. QQ theres a unit that makes it hard to vetwhore!

[Demon767]

change them and im one of those that will probably leave.
Imo to many wierd changes has been done already, feel sorry for eirrmod that youre running the mod into the ground.
like, fireflies, m18s, stuhs, nebels, stukas and so much more.
Stop breaking units please.

+1

though i dont agree with balance team bashing.

1 shrek is just pathetic to what it always has been. The price which has always been at a premium. A unique unit!

If storms do get changed, I will leave coh and the furom. I can't stand seeing the community butcher company of heroes for their own amusement.

Show me the changelog, i want to know if storms are going to be change so it saves me the trouble of reading retards post on the internet.

[Mysthalin]

First of all, wind - you're attacking nikomas with no reasonable fucking grounds. He specifically stated he thinks storms are a DESIGN, not a balance issue. The fact you're clinging to him stating it's a balance issue and trying to disprove him on what he said, and what he meant is just flat out retarded.

Secondly - Occam's Razor? Really? If we were to look at the stormtrooper from the Occam's Razor standpoint in trying to find the simplest possible reason why they require re-balancing - you would without a doubt end up at the double shreks. No other form of stormtrooper receives any sort of balance complaint (though STGs are most definitively overpriced), and no other unit in the game, not even by a long-shot has come close to providing so much AT firepower for a mere 10 popcap. Occam's Razor suggests the double-shrek stormtroopers are the core of the issue - and need axing.

Poor arguments only start from other poor arguments.

Demon, that is so fallacious it's beyond Westboro Baptist Church retarded.

like, fireflies, m18s, stuhs, nebels, stukas and so much more.

Dnicee:

Fireflies have largely only been nerfed considering they no longer have access to 0.5 reload from a vet 2 CCT like they used to. Their long-range reload has also been normalised to it's short-range reload, which is quintessentially a nerf considering the range at which the firefly usually fights. It has been somewhat off-set by the 100 health buff it got, but overall the firefly is a weaker unit compared to what it used to be.

M18s - yes, a weird change that's been implemented.. last patch. Like, literally, there hasn't been a single patch since the unit came out in it's new form to tone it down. And you're calling foul on that? It's like me stating the mod is fucking broken forever because the flakpanzer 43 is retarded just after it came out. You know, as opposed to waiting for a single patch.

StuHs - same as M18, though not really finding that much of an issue with the StuH tbh - there's equivalent units on both sides. Only thing I'd really change is reduce the accuracy vs cover, so you can at least live with your troops if you're being smart with them.

Nebels - That you're kind of correct on, the building crit removal was unwarranted, considering how fucking LOUD the unit is.

Stukas - we doubled it's penetration vs infantry. That's the only change it ever received, and on top of that it's price went down recently. What world do you live in where it's the EiRR Balance team making the unit crap, when all they did was give buffs to it.

Either way, get the fuck back on topic of what nikomas suggested rather than crying about the perceived permanent nerfbat the axis have been getting. Also, Unkn0wn, tank, Elitegren, Killer, whoever - move the topic to general discussion so nonsense on how this thread was apparently a balance thread doesn't keep cropping up.

[nikomas]

If you dont think something is unbalanced, and you don't have a problem countering them, then there is no reason to post a balance thread trying to get them changed. The amount of important changes already heaped upon EiR's dev team notwithstanding, it's banal and nonsensical to start changing units in EiR just for the hell of it.

For one thing, it creates an even bigger and more unnecessary obstacle for new and returning players to take up the mod. Secondly, it's just bad balance justification. It fosters EiR's emerging broken balance culture of "let's change things because we can" which has seem tremendously more harm done to balance historically.

It's as good of a justification as the flimsy balance arguments people throw around here, it's an awkward unit that is one of a kind and does things only that single unit can do, keeping them around just because they've always been there is just of a shitty idea when in fact they do not fit the doctrine to begin with and it singlehandedly changed the pace of a game.

So now we balance units to make them more like every other unit in the game? Yeah, don't sign me up for that crazy mod please.

Bitchplease, Out of all the abilities in CoH several units share them, from sprint, fireup, assault and so on, moving cloak is limited to sniper and storms alone, moving cloak has no place on a 4 man "Assault" squad in the "Lightning war" doctrine.

This isn't an argument. "it's awkward" is not a position advocating good balance, it's advocating a subjective desire for one person's idea of aesthetically pleasing gameplay. In order to make a change to the game, there should be exceptional justification. Otherwise, it's infinitely better not to change something.

No, it is a good position to argue off because in this case, Stormtroopers are a "Gamechanger"... They have an extreme amount of field presence and forces and decent player to blob up to cover his tanks, in many cases change their whole engagement style to not get picked off.

What other infantry unit can do? Hell, not even a KT has that much field presence yet nothing is wrong when 5 pop inf squads can do that, what other 5/10 pop squad requires you to call in specific counter unit, on top of needing more than it's worth in pop in AI to even take down before they run away?

Of all the things you've said, this is the one I find to be the most dangerous and blatantly harmful to the gameplay of this mod.

It is absolutely a terrible idea to try and whitewash this mod's gameplay to the point where it is seen as undesirable to have to prepare your company to meet specific threats... and to have to expend effort, co-ordination and time protecting your units from a myriad of potential threats.

I think it is absurd and completely counter-productive to good gameplay to resent units in the game which add complexity and which force opponents to have to adapt and play smarter, more carefully and in better co-ordination with their teammates.

If you don't have to change your company at all to face 6 different possible enemy doctrines with 3 different possible T4's each and their own associated unlocks... then we've really got a problem on our hands with EiR.

So no, just no.

Wind, I have to stop here and remember how you love to spam things sometimes, and how you look past how extremly homo it is cause countercompanies are a strategy and all that stuff, so I cant really take you seriously here. Games should be decided on the field with help from how you built your coy, games shoud NEVER, NEVER be decided in the launcher, and a balanced company should ALWAYS have a chance to take on a specific one if the player is good.


That aside, you know what? It's undesirable to have to not have to modify (Glad you advocate looking up the enemy coys pre battle btw)) your coy depending on who you're fighting, then this game has a really huge fucking issue as it stands, Blitz is literally the only company in the entire game I change things up for, extra recon units, but that's about it.

I feel no need to change anything against any other coy and I do just fine with most of them, if that's how you think then you must think this mod has some severe issues as it stands, as I can counter pretty much anything with a calli company, or my grenadier company can take on just about anything.

... cant fuckin' believe I have to bow down next to myst's mighty words, lol

[nikomas]

Nikomas mad Storms killed some vetted unit of his. QQ theres a unit that makes it hard to vetwhore!

Bitchplease Ray, if you read you'd see, I don't lose vet to storms, even with 5 squads on the field at once they couldn't nail a call... they make awesome bait thou, that's for sure.

[Tymathee]

here's the thing though. stormtrooper schrecks used to cost less, maybe 260/280, something like that, price was upped and they're still an issue, that should let u know something.

[Dnicee]

as for alpha striking tanks with ten pop is nice from behind.

But tried that on one m18 and it survived 4 hits from shrecks frontal though, but since it has paper armor it shouldnt matter right?

one more thing about stormies is that they cant hit shit from distance. You have to be pretty close.

With that said i think we should stop these pointless threads about stormies being op etc etc etc.

[Smokaz]

bitch please the only reason you ever got to kill that hellcat was because of the storms, they are very good

[TheWindCriesMary]

First of all, wind - you're attacking nikomas with no reasonable fucking grounds. He specifically stated he thinks storms are a DESIGN, not a balance issue. The fact you're clinging to him stating it's a balance issue and trying to disprove him on what he said, and what he meant is just flat out retarded.

A plainly incorrect summation of what is happening here.

I'm criticizing Nikomas' argument precisely because he's not arguing from a balance issue.

You have somehow managed to misread plain english and get the complete 180 degree wrong impression from what is happening here.

English, and argumentative fail at its best.

Occam's Razor suggests the double-shrek stormtroopers are the core of the issue - and need axing.

No, it suggests looking for the simplest explanation for the complaints with Stormtroopers. Is it because they are overpowered, or is it because people don't like playing against things that require thinking, intelligence and being patient to counter?

The simpler explanation is the latter.

[Demon767]

Dnicee is right, the metagame has changed to the new TD's and in response, Storms are being used. They are not the problem, its just next on the list of a unit to be cried about. I wonder what unit will be next to be cried about, i bet its the cheapness of a P4. Or raising the price of Mg42s, or raising the price of Paks. I wonder what is next that noobs are going to bring up.

Funnily enough, the last time i posted a thread in the balance furom was June 2 - 2011 (It was shit suggestion then a balanced discussion tbh)

But i see the same people posting in the balance threads on every page. I wonder why 

[TheWindCriesMary]

It's as good of a justification as the flimsy balance arguments people throw around here, it's an awkward unit that is one of a kind and does things only that single unit can do, keeping them around just because they've always been there is just of a shitty idea when in fact they do not fit the doctrine to begin with and it singlehandedly changed the pace of a game.

I will definitely agree that people make flimsy balance arguments around here all the time.

With that being said, "does things that only a single unit can do" is not a reason to get rid of them. In fact it's a reason to keep them (although it is not accurate at all to say only storms can move and cloak as multiple units can) as they add complexity, and tactical uncertainty to the mod's metagame.

Bitchplease, Out of all the abilities in CoH several units share them, from sprint, fireup, assault and so on, moving cloak is limited to sniper and storms alone, moving cloak has no place on a 4 man "Assault" squad in the "Lightning war" doctrine.

Blitzkrieg is a doctrine intended for fast, sudden and unexpected assaults. So no, it is not at all unlikely to have a cloaked, 4 man assault squad capable of launching unexpected assaults that deal high damage in a short period of time.

No, it is a good position to argue off because in this case, Stormtroopers are a "Gamechanger"... They have an extreme amount of field presence and forces and decent player to blob up to cover his tanks, in many cases change their whole engagement style to not get picked off.

A unit that forces your enemy to have to fight on your terms, not his, is the definition of good strategy. Shitty gameplay is when you get to play your safe, comfortable, mindless style of gameplay regardless of who or what you are facing.

What other infantry unit can do? Hell, not even a KT has that much field presence

Just lol. This couldn't be a more ludicrous statement if it had dancing ostriches around it.

Wind, I have to stop here and remember how you love to spam things sometimes, and how you look past how extremly homo it is cause countercompanies are a strategy and all that stuff, so I cant really take you seriously here. Games should be decided on the field with help from how you built your coy,  games shoud NEVER, NEVER be decided in the launcher, and a balanced company should ALWAYS have a chance to take on a specific one if the player is good.

Good preparation + good playing = victory. Good playing without good preparation = defeat. Good preparation without good playing = defeat.

You are going to need to learn this one of these days.

That aside, you know what? It's undesirable to have to not have to modify (Glad you advocate looking up the enemy coys pre battle btw)) your coy depending on who you're fighting, then this game has a really huge fucking issue as it stands, Blitz is literally the only company in the entire game I change things up for, extra recon units, but that's about it.

I have never once advocated looking up the enemy's company pre-battle. In fact, if I recall correctly you recently were caught cheating by doing exactly this.

Looks like you've been caught red handed doing the exact thing you are now trying to say "shouldn't need to be done". That's called being unethical doing it, but then coupled with your unsuccesful attempt at an argument here it gets elevated to hypocrisy.

I don't do it, but I win very often. Why? I gather intel from past battles, other players and what I know about a person's play styles to make sure I have the right tools in my toolbox when I meet them in battle. To somehow insinuate that it is insulting to your "sensibilities" to have to do these things, and that you should be able to build a company that can "do everything well" is absolute nonsense.

Let me repeat that: your argument is, unequivocally, absolute nonsense.

[Tymathee]

I always felt storms fit more in terror and 4man kch in blitzkrieg tbh.

[Vermillion_Hawk]

All I'm really seeing is Wind being a Luddite and adhering to justifying the existence, in its curent state, of a unit which excelled in a vCoH environment yet perhaps excells too much in an EiRR environment. As I've said earlier, change is very necessary for EiRR, since keeping units mostly unchanged from their vCoH state and then introducing them onto a very different battlefield causes all these balance issues that crop up every now and then. What the balance team is doing with these "unnecessary changes" is inevitable, and good for the mod in the end, despite the griping of a few elements along the way.

[AmPM]

The only issue with Stormies is the dual schreks.

The cloak isn't a big deal other than that. Buy some jeeps if you are armor heavy. No different than buying a bunch if you know the opponent likes snipers.