Mainline Infantry Balance Thread

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[TheVolskinator]

Either reduce the price of G43s or modify the PE K98k/replace it with the storm Kar98k. Right now, the PG Kar98k is utter shit and THAT is where the problem stems from. If you got 4 stormtrooper kar98ks everyone would be jumping for joy.

[BaleWolf]

I think one of the main things with the G43 was that it wasn't a stand alone weapon. Yes, it did more damage, but it was more of a combo with MP44s or some other weapon with the use of the slow. Now that the slow has been replaced with a suppression that takes forever to take effect they no longer fulfill the role that they were created for.

[Smokaz]

Here's the core facts about the g43:

The targets that it can effectively supress and fight better using this upgrade they are already adept at fighting. Sometimes they beat rifles sometimess the rifles beat them using grenades or bars.

However the problem for PE is not beating rifles, it's contending with a armor type that is better than infantry armor and not reliant on moving or staying still.

The g43 just buffs a base ability meagerly. The upgrade with the ability is already similar to the others. It used to be unique with a clear advantage and tradeoff - you slowed a single squad at the loss of all your dps on the slow ability using squad.

Now it's bland and largely unneccessary, whatever targets that the g43 panzergren squad is good at fighting is not a problem for the rest of the PE army (rifles, tommies).

Rangers however are. I don't believe rangerspam is OP vs wehrmacht as they can field flamers without specializing in it, buy anti handheld skirts on a large part of their armor types and field their own tough armor type infantry.  (Elite armor,medikits, heroic armor.)

The g43 upgrade should in my honest opinion be made much powerful and also more EXPENSIVE. Make it a burst damage dealer weak to combat at close range. The COH engine is entirely able to service a design like this. Make it have a higher damage per bullet with a higher chance of crit but losing out by reload time at shrot range.

This promotes a mix of regular kar98s, g43 and assault grenadiers with mp44s. You know, the same kind of mixed arms that the americans and wehr unit types promote with their standoff elite kar98s, their anti blob/charge lmg, their grenades and mp44s. Americans thrive on using cover and effective ways of showing up at close distance with their base weapons. They eliminate targets out of cover with bars and riflefire, and deal with units in cover using grenades and cover. They take out support weapons and tougher "camping" grens with

Kar98s should be the rifle contenders, able to deal okay damage at all ranges but nothing big.Assault grenadiers should fill the role of moving combat and short ranges.

G43s should be the long range experts, causing casualities at long range and relying on other units to "tank" chargers. The casualty part is very important if a change is made because this is what allows them to punish hit'n run tactics vs their unskirted vehicle options, which is the crux of the issue facing buffed handheld AT. It's not enough for g43s to deal a total of 48 dmg at long range vs squads that have good modifiers vs g43s and enough health to ignore a few volleys while getting off their zook shots.

What I have been describing is what I would think of as good & diverse design. Having pgs without g43s and pgs without "exelling" at the same mediocre "role" as tym so expertedly coins it, seem like lazy design for me.

The supression ability, as it stands, is not necessary or what's wanted. PE players want to deal casualties to inf that tries to snipe their vehicles.

Slow was unpopular because it used to work on retreating units (bad). It was also a highly circumstancial since a lot of the time killing the dps of your squad just stalled the entire situation ONCE, for a long cooldown.

One might even ask: why does the g43 need a even within the confines of the game, "unrealistic", abiliy lie slow or a bolt action supressing fire ability.. A weapon like the bar definitely was able to put out supressing fire, but it stretches the imagination to think of 4 guys with a 6~ reload time supressing six men firing back at them.

It does not however seem very out of place to have sniper-like special infantry with scoped rifles.
Please dont misinterpret this as a call for a new recon squad for PE, or the change of PGs to this kind of role. I'm talking of very specific changes to how the g43 operates vs infantry, not making them snipers

[DarkSoldierX]

Everyone here still refuses to acknowledge that for 10% more MP than a volks squad you get the 10%+ more dps against nearly all of your targets and far better survivability due to 80 HP per man. The more HP per man will allow you to maintain DPS far better in infantry engagements compared to rifles/volks. You also have the ability for some of the cheapest soft counters available. You can easily equip all of your infantry force with these cost effective soft counters to counter both tanks and infantry. The only problem you will encounter is rangers, thats it. And if thats a balance issue then mid T4 KCH must be OP too because they like to roll through american and brit basic infantry like they are butter, while pushing through bar suppressive fire like its nothing.

To buff them with 4 pop, or give Pgrens elite kars would be a joke. Your obviously not realizing the advantages you were given. Play your damn cards and learn how to find a legitimate balance issue, like the assault grens, those are actually overpriced.

And on brit infantry, they are a terrific platform that comes at a cost. In order for these guys to really shine with enfields they need thier LT. That is fine, and keeps game play more interesting. That mechanic should not change. The only changes that should be done are maybe a small survivability increase/part of the cooldown buff is moved to the vanilla LT to make him more viable at vet 0. The commando LT is effective as is and provides the highly attractive vet 2 offensive buffs off the bat, so he really doesn't need much of a change.

[Smokaz]

Pgrens with elite kars costing 240 munitions would be so OP .. because grens are op? Is this where we are now that medikitless grens are overpowered? Might as well revert infantry armor back to soldier armor..

Why not even just make them better than grens for more cost then? Cause PE don't really need a volk type of infantry, which the panzergren is too close to. Cause your not buying grens with elite kar98s and a medikit when you get panzergrens, thats for sure.

[smurfORnot]

just make one of those g43 mini sniper rifle...2 shots...DEAD!

[Smokaz]

I dont get why PE needs to have cheap infantry - their inf is expensive in vcoh, and this helps keep them different.

They also have way too few upgrades available. They need some kind of offensive or defensive stat upgrade for a manpower cost

we've seen that this is balancable with the infantry casualty retrieval mechanic

[Smokaz]

why not give them group zeal

[NightRain]

why not give them group zeal

yes, I want to blob them near building and benefit double buffs as TH :3

[smurfORnot]

why not add extra man with sergeant upgrade? You could make it more expensive if needed to reflect cost of extra guy. This way you would have mainline infantry,as all other factions have who can recrew 2 weapons,when needed.

[jackmccrack]

why not add extra man with sergeant upgrade? You could make it more expensive if needed to reflect cost of extra guy. This way you would have mainline infantry,as all other factions have who can recrew 2 weapons,when needed.

I like this idea

[Tymathee]

I like this idea

they used to have it when they had 3 guys. also, 5 man squad with 80 health, thats elite infantry territory

[smurfORnot]

yes,and? If they cost appropriately where is the problem?

[tank130]

Sounds like to me you are trying to make PE units like Wher units......

PE is fast moving vehicle based. I suggest we start by making changes to the vehicles first. Perhaps better acceleration, durability, or anything to better pathing.

[Tymathee]

I agree.

However i think a lot of the arguement against that will be the changes made to CW to make them more like US & WM.

PE does need some love though, I just don't know exactly what.

[tank130]

However i think a lot of the arguement against that will be the changes made to CW to make them more like US & WM.

Two wrongs do not make a right, but that is just my personal opinion.......

But, perhaps PE & CW do not fit well in the game environment we have created in EiRR, therefore forcing us to mimic the factions..... don't know, just a random thought.

[NightRain]

PE halftracks need a modifier so that they just dont blow up after 2 easy atg shots. Currently Panzer Elite struggles against few things. Some are balance some map.

Pathing
Support weapons
Handhelds

We all know that Panzer Elite is mobile, all their shit comes on tracks or wheels aside of their infantry. Their primary counter to their primary threats aka heavy machinegun teams and anti tank guns is their Mortar Halftrack. Some say it is superior compared to all the other mortars due to the fact it can move and does not require time to set up. While true in the mobile fact it comes with a unfortunate drawback. Once its gone it is gone. No PE man can come and revive it to use the mortar again. Its short range and no ability to defend itself aside of moving makes it a vulnerable target that can only repair itself once. Then it has this thing. When it is firing, it can not move until firing cycle is done which lasts few seconds sometimes enough for that second anti tank gun shot to finish it off.

Support weapons and units will keep pushing PE back. On a straight narrow map with very little ability to flank or a heavily urban map(Like forest) pathing and otherwise vehicle usage is significantly reduced. Infantry vs infantry fight PE has soft counters but will ultimately lose to any elite infantry useage. BARs will tear them to pieces and so will brens nothing new right there. Your saving grace is buildings that's about it. The very use of combined arms makes fluidly moving panzer elite unable to contain a frontline versus frontline fights, especially Zooked infantry. The only doctrine on Americans that don't get zooks gets recoiless rifles instead and I don't think I have to remind anyone what happens when a volley hits a halftrack or any other unit in that matter that is vehicle based. While mortars and artillery doesn't bug panzer elite all that much, the sheer ammount of machinegun teams and anti tank guns will. It would be all nice and dandy but the pesky guns are often covered by some form of anti-vehicle armed unit making Suicidal rushes (PE's common strategy) very dangerous.

Now from 57mm which will counter all Anti tank options Panzer Elite has (nondoctrines) The marder is forced back by a 57mm that crawls next to a Sherman. Slow? Why yes, but very effective. Charging up at the anti tank gun feeds the Sherman and vehicle attacks feeds the anti tank gun (and sherman too). Marder trying to help will ultimately be forced back by anti tank gun shots.

The common trend these day is to have shit tons of rangers and infantry units that are capable of carrying bazookas, RRs or other form of handhelds. PIATs are common but due to them being projectiles that fire like artillery they can be dodged much easier than a weapon that rolls hits. I certainly do think that massive clowncar armies would be the best way to deal with allied current metagame but even then it will cause heavy casualities and all of PE stuff isn't exactly cheap throw away. Even for a infantry squad you pay that 215 manpower and it alone can't do anything relatively useful.

Now, to think what would aid panzer elite without altering their general gameplay is difficult. It is harder than anything. There are multiple ways to do it however, Modifiers for anti tank guns versus PE Halftracks. This will make panzer elite halftracks survive that third shot giving the potential time of lenght to continue the attack or escape without loosing said unit. Removing smallarms fire damaging PE halftracks (all variants) this would generally prelenght all the HTs survivability and boost their ability to deal damage. Giving PE a non doctrine support unit. I don't understand why Support grenadiers were removed, were they really that shit? a Squad that potentially could suppress without being a vehicle based unit.

I honestly think the best bet would be to look down at their infantry performance. Group zeal and price changes would make PE infantry a force that isn't stopped with a single tripple bar squad. Their Assault grenadiers requires some form of elite armor that they can perform their assault role and regular infantry some form of survivability. Medkits? a CCT type of a healing aura unit? All of those could work. PE only has 3 sources of healing and all three are doctrine based. TH building heal (very slow), SE Healing Scout car(Fast) and Luftwaffe Medkits(Fast).

[8thRifleRegiment]

Im a huge fan of taking the support gren out of its retirement as a reward unit and placing it as a regular PE unit. It just worked so well, bridging the gap between an HMG and an LMG. It prevented infantry from chargeing across that open cover to eat your pgrens

[Tymathee]

Two wrongs do not make a right, but that is just my personal opinion.......

But, perhaps PE & CW do not fit well in the game environment we have created in EiRR, therefore forcing us to mimic the factions..... don't know, just a random thought.

I'm with you, I'm just parroting what has been brought up a few times concerning the factions.

[Smokaz]

Two wrongs do not make a right, but that is just my personal opinion.......

But, perhaps PE & CW do not fit well in the game environment we have created in EiRR, therefore forcing us to mimic the factions..... don't know, just a random thought.

Akranadas thought this for a long time, and wanted to give PE the same extra units as british got with the "2, vickers and 6p.