[PE] Fixing the Oxymoron faction

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[Smokaz]

good jesus...thats too much to read.

good start

I can't think of anything that made PE too weak. I think it has a lot of issues

Okay getting better

I can't think of anything that made PE too weak. I think it has a lot of issues

huh ? wait what are you saying here?

I can't think of anything that made PE too weak. I think it has a lot of issues

If there's any one thing, it would be that it's one biggest strength has somehow been nullified: Mobility.

I remember the days of AC swarms, IHT's, marders, etc just wrecking havoc and in the effort of making PE more stationary like the other factions, it's mobility was taken away.

Oh great and wise Tymbuddah, how was PE mobility taken away?

[tank130]

Here's what I think the problem is:

For most of us - when we build a company, we are trying to ensure we have as much AT capabilities as possible. Why?? - because the meta game is a fuck ton of vehicles.

In vCoH, you did not see a lot of vehicles. If you did, it was always late game and near the end of the battle.

In Eirr, we have a shit load of vehicles. That includes LV's and tanks. That means everyone needs a shit ton of AT.

That means PE ( the vehicle based faction) gets raped!!!

I think we need to change the resource base amounts, as well as warmap bonuses and make this game less about vehicles / AT.

[Tymathee]

Oh great and wise Tymbuddah, how was PE mobility taken away?

Like this.

In Eirr, we have a shit load of vehicles. That includes LV's and tanks. That means everyone needs a shit ton of AT.

That means PE ( the vehicle based faction) gets raped!!!

They're still fast but they can't hit and run because they'll be swarmed with AT. It used to be, if you take out a certain amount of AT, you knew they wouldn't have anymore, not so much now.

I would like to see EIR turn back to a position battle, where support weapons were more useful, infantry upgrades scarce and recrewing a necessity.

It's not a company battle anymore, it's more of a specialists battle. Everybody has upgrades, everybody performs at their peak. There's no "I should bring out my BAR's now, there is X infantry on the field" now it's "I have infantry without bars, i should get rid of them and get more tanks"

Raise MP, Lower MU and Fuel.

[Smokaz]

Alternatively, we can not flip the entire game upside down again, and just look at whether or not these vehicles perform well enough within the current environment. I'd say a lot of them do vs anything but zooks, which are simply balanced for effort and price vs wehr, but becomes too efficient vs PE. Supporting AT (non handheld) maul stuff like IST's as well while their weak rifles and damage modifiers vs zooks make their infantry unable to compete

They're still fast but they can't hit and run because they'll be swarmed with AT. It used to be, if you take out a certain amount of AT, you knew they wouldn't have anymore, not so much now.

The AT you are talking about is too tough for hit n run, a full armored car burst might not even take down a single ranger while a single zook hit will shave a nice portion of LV health off a PE unit.

Hit'n run vs the current allied armor just isn't so good. TD's outrange and outmaneuver shrek ht's, and jumbos/churchill simply ignore half the shrek hits.

We can start by asking ourselves, why is ranger zooks cheaper on rangers than it is on rifles? Judging from the "superiah" unlock, ranger zooks should be around 100 muni. Zook rifles pay 55 for 1, and they are still popular.

[Tymathee]

Alternatively, we can not flip the entire game upside down again, and just look at whether or not these vehicles perform well enough within the current environment. I'd say a lot of them do vs anything but zooks, which are simply balanced for effort and price vs wehr, but becomes too efficient vs PE. Supporting AT (non handheld) maul stuff like IST's as well while their weak rifles and damage modifiers vs zooks make their infantry unable to compete

The AT you are talking about is too tough for hit n run, a full armored car burst might not even take down a single ranger while a single zook hit will shave a nice portion of LV health off a PE unit.

Hit'n run vs the current allied armor just isn't so good. TD's outrange and outmaneuver shrek ht's, and jumbos/churchill simply ignore half the shrek hits.

We can start by asking ourselves, why is ranger zooks cheaper on rangers than it is on rifles? Judging from the "superiah" unlock, ranger zooks should be around 100 muni. Zook rifles pay 55 for 1, and they are still popular.

Not going to read what you said but I added in my 2 cents to fix and that's to raise MP and lower MU and FU so there's more infantry but less with upgrades and tanks actually mean something rather than be thrown away.

If you want to fix how much AT there is on all sides, you make it less available thus more valuable to have.

[SophiaT1991]

Hey Sophia, i know just the mod for you.
Have you tried OMG mod?

I like everything but the repair bunker, would be fine i suppose if it would be a buildable Bergtiger but it still would be stupid, better would be if every repair bought would give something like double repair for LVs (scoutcar, MortarHT,Armored car) and LVAT (marder, 50mm HT) things like that.

otherwise i approve.

Yes, OMG is a superior mod, gameplay wise, but im still guna play eir cos it has more players in my timezone.


Fact is PE is meant to be an armour based faction, but with all the at, you can only do 1 or 2 attacks then the unit has to be called of or die as youve no more repair kits for it to be useful.



I miss the days of Bastion when there was a row of 3 repair bunkers behind the hedges and you could choose to attack the front line or take out their repair options. Protecting your flanks meant something and supply lines and all that tactical BS ftw.

Noone fucking builds wire or tanktraps behind their line now, or has units to protect their arty or even have a line, used to fight across the map and you'd go fucking apeshit if your partner let a m10 get behind to ko all your support units (rep bunkers, arty, engies, ect)


Now its just blobs crashing into blobs.

[Uglysori]

I need to delve into Corsix before I can give a good critique of Volks's suggestions but off the bat a few things come strike me.

PGs -  PGs aren't Wehr grenadiers.  Probably because of mirror purposes, and rightly so, they shouldn't be grenadiers.  

I know this has been discussed in earlier threads when PE made the armor change.  I still think the approach should be what makes PGs worse than grenadiers vs allied inf?  Is it vanilla weapon dps? I believe 40% less dps was thrown out as a number at one pt.  Is it weapons selection? 1 LMG vs 2 G43s, Inc grenades vs Gren frags.  Is it survivability?  Med kits  Is it MP costs?  Gren 240 vs PG 215 - 240 w/ sprint (and increased suppression resistance upon activation) Pop Costs?  

Assault Grens - Assault Flammens used to have AB armor and the unit is basically the same thing as Grens except one weapon slot is taken by a flamethrower.  The question should be why was AB armor taken off Assault Flammens?  That should give you an idea as to whether or not AB armor should be reimplemented.

Tankbusters - One of the major problem with TBs is, as mentioned by Volk, that they are often increasingly asked to play an AT role for PE that their survivability as a platform is unsuited for. ie all their PE AT assets already hard countered by ATGs or more mobile allied vehicles, clown cars w/ handheld at.  However, elite armor is probably not the answer.  With SE, for example, storm tactics would give you an elite armor, possibly sprinting, 4 man squad packing a shrek and pretty much 3 g43s at no extra cost.  

PE Vehicles - Repair bunkers are not the answer imo.  The problem for PE AT assets is their vulnerablity to ATG creep and fragility to AT weapons in general.  Being able to bring your AT assets off the line to repair in the backfield isn't going to help being pushed off the map via ATG creep.  Having something slowly repair your 50mms in the backfield isn't going to save the unit when it dies to a couple hits from most tanks and lacks the maneuverability and health to survive the lighter vehicles that take longer to kill them. I know players that don't bother buying repairs for their 50mm if they even bother to buy 50mms at all.

Possible changes?  Lower ATG accuracy vs Marders, 50mm hts, LTAT hts? Or increase firing arc? Or bring back the ability to fire on the move? Or lower Tank, vehicle accuracy vs PE vehicle AT?

It should be one or the other.  Either ATGs continue to dominate PE assets but allied vehicles are either unable to effectively engage or unable to flank PE assets as easily.  Or ATGs can't engage PE AT assets effectively but like ATGs, vehicles and infantry can still flank and rush unprotected PE AT assets.

As it is right now,  it's far too easy for an ATG to push up a front causing PE AT assets to displace and therefore unable to shoot at Allied vehicles rushing in to flank.  Hell in some cases, you have a marginal range advantage against Allied tanks - Fireflies supported by vet CCTs, or you do too little damage and are too fragile to drive off the very tanks you are supposed to counter.  

Nightrain - IHTs are simply too fragile in the current meta.  Too much handheld AT that is very effective against them.  Infantry small arms that are effective at penetrating their armor.  I don't know why they and the majority of PE HTs still haven't been upgraded from universal carrier armor.  Fuel burden on a faction that has to devote way more of their fuel to AT than other factions.  

Smokaz - Assault Flammens weapon selection is fine.  Saying MP44s are ineffective in smoke is a moot pt.  It's not like Pio or Eng smgs, or Sapper enfields are anymore effective in smoke either.  The flamer will always be you main source of dmg in smoke.  MP44s simply mean that your squad is much more effective in fighting infantry out of smoke.  But the main issue is where the hell are you getting smoke to cover your assault flammens anyway?  And where are the doctrine buffs in SE to support this T3 unlock?  


Tank - Lowering the resource pool to make the game more infantry centric seems like it wouldn't help situation currently for PE if PE infantry inferiority isn't resolved and give PE an even smaller number of vehicles that are easily countered by Allied AT.    

Totally forgot to add my own pt.  Why is there still no non-doctrinal infantry squad that is less than 5 pop on PE? Support grens were great not only because of their capabilities but I finally had something that was frigging 3 pop infantry unit.  

[jackmccrack]

Why not give PGs another man?

[SophiaT1991]

Why not give PGs another man?

And support weapons, a battle tank and a sniper.

[Dnicee]

I miss the days of Bastion when there was a row of 3 repair bunkers behind the hedges and you could choose to attack the front line or take out their repair options. Protecting your flanks meant something and supply lines and all that tactical BS ftw.

Noone fucking builds wire or tanktraps behind their line now, or has units to protect their arty or even have a line, used to fight across the map and you'd go fucking apeshit if your partner let a m10 get behind to ko all your support units (rep bunkers, arty, engies, ect)


Now its just blobs crashing into blobs.

This!

[Smokaz]

Smokaz - Assault Flammens weapon selection is fine.  Saying MP44s are ineffective in smoke is a moot pt.  It's not like Pio or Eng smgs, or Sapper enfields are anymore effective in smoke either.  The flamer will always be you main source of dmg in smoke.  MP44s simply mean that your squad is much more effective in fighting infantry out of smoke.  But the main issue is where the hell are you getting smoke to cover your assault flammens anyway?  And where are the doctrine buffs in SE to support this T3 unlock?  

Your not forced to buy anything on the other units you are comparing to. And how many games of SE have you played again? You should know where to get smoke from...

How I would feel about having to buy two 25 muni greaseguns on my engies or a 15 muni mp40 on my pioneers? Horrible.  Or having to buy freaking thompsons or stens on my flame sappers? Appalling.

Marders are good enough atm, incidentally.

[Smokaz]

As for the population issue maybe the lack of a proper grenade, lack of medikit and shitty kar98 pe rifles means that the PGs should be 4 pop?

The +1 pop that the infantry armor change brought with it was uncalled for. I agree a lot with that sentiment.

[Uglysori]

Your not forced to buy anything on the other units you are comparing to. And how many games of SE have you played again? You should know where to get smoke from...

Marders are good enough atm, incidentally.

Smoke, yes.  An effective amt of smoke as compared to Infantry, AB or RE? No. 

I personally think Sappers would be fantastic with stens or thompsons especially in clowncars.  Still not sure what your pt is about Flammens, a unit designed to get close with one of the best close ranged firearms in the game.  

[Smokaz]

Well thats a separate issue then. AFAIK the mortar ht smoke is comparable to other mortar smoke?

The gimmick of giving MORE smoke to allies that eirr has developed into, ended up being dumb. Remove casualty smoke , remove smoke grenades, smoke on fireup and smoke offmaps. Let the goddamn mortars who dont buff their surrounding units or fight "directly" supply this very precious resource.

 I mean jesus it's like some kind of gigantic ganja field descends to protect the allied blob w/bob marley approving the sky sometimes.

Here's how it should look:

Brits - mortar, cct (shared cooldown, medium cooldown and 2 uses) and riflenades supply smoke
Wehr - 1 doctrine tank choice and mortar supplies smoke
Americans - mortar and officer
PE - Mortar ht (all doctrines), Luft riflenades and humme smoke barrage (SE)

[SophiaT1991]

Well thats a separate issue then. AFAIK the mortar ht smoke is comparable to other mortar smoke?

The gimmick of giving MORE smoke to allies that eirr has developed into, ended up being dumb. Remove casualty smoke , remove smoke grenades, smoke on fireup and smoke offmaps. Let the goddamn mortars who dont buff their surrounding units or fight "directly" supply this very precious resource.

 I mean jesus it's like some kind of gigantic ganja field descends to protect the allied blob w/bob marley approving the sky sometimes.

YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND!

EIR ISNT ABOUT GAMEPLAY AND UNIT ROLES!!!!!!!

Tis about fancy buttons and filling a flawed doctrine system.

[jackmccrack]

Why not put PGs back at 4 pop?

[DarkSoldierX]

YOU JUST DONT UNDERSTAND!

EIR ISNT ABOUT GAMEPLAY AND UNIT ROLES!!!!!!!

Tis about fancy buttons and filling a flawed doctrine system.

Then stop whining about it and go to OMG, screw the timezones.

[SophiaT1991]

Then stop whining about it and go to OMG, screw the timezones.

hush boy, only complained in this thread, and fact is what ive said is true, in regard to the problem of PE

[Demon767]

i agree the amount of smoke from allies is ludicrous

[NightRain]

Phase armor for halftracks to dodge atg fire more often.