AVRE Data Thread

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[Mysthalin]

Please post all your replays to this thread.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Here are all the replays I have from the past few weeks of my time using AVRE's. I haven't taken out any games in the interest of giving an unbiased representation of the unit.


1. http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=25891.0

2. http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25890.0;attach=7281

3. 3rd replay (last game I played) attached to this post. Lots of AVRE's in this one

4. Replay posted by me in the replays section: http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=25699.0

5. Ditto: http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=25816.0

Bolt might also have some as he has re-added avre's to his brit company to try and get more data as well

[XIIcorps]

Updated.

2v2 on neuville

XIICorps RE
Furyofthesturm Inf

Uglisori SE
Angelsoldiereast Terror?

i used 3 avres to variing degrees of talent, being my first game in a month im rather rusty.

[rolcsika0128]

3v3 game

To speed up the process: my first avre failed horribly, got killed early. I managed to get some shots with the 2nd one though from like the 15 min mark. I recommend 6x speed until then. My personal feelings about this game's avre performance: it's amazing vs supressed targets, instagibbed storms. Just don't waste that precious shell on a volks squad for example, unless its vital.

(I hope I managed to attach replay file and it's working, if not, pm me pls)
(will keep posting data regardless the outcome of the game)

[Bolt]

Here ye go bad game n all. and some odd dibs but the AVRE needs to kill the gun not just kill the crew or else what is the point?. that's like waiting 90s to decrew 1 thing that can be re crewed in less then 15s

Got a total of 13 kills between two AVRES. which was 3 less then andy44 had his entire company.

[tank130]

AVRE usage in action
3v3 on D-Day – Reinforcements

Allies
Bolt
Wind
Andy

Axis
Ray
Tank
Shoganot

4:00 – First AVRE deployed by Wind – Code name W1
5:10 - W1 destroys 2 man Tank Buster squad in house
7:08 – attacked by Marder & Pak, 2 hits each = ~15% health
          -Destroys another 2 man PG squad in house
7:42 – W1 destroyed by precision strike
7:57 – Second AVRE deployed by Wind – Code name W2
8:35 – First AVRE deployed by Bolt – Code name B1
9:07 – W2 attacked by Marder & Pak. 2 Shots each
9:17 – W2 destroys Vet 1, full health pak crew
9:20 – W2 down to 50% health, leaves to repair
9:21 -  B1 fires at 2 moving PG squads. One squad destroyed, the other down to 5% Health
           - Attacked by Marder – 1 shot
12:13 – B1 hit by Pak
12:16 – B1 destroys Pak gun & crew. B1 = ~30% Health
13:44 – W2 attacked by Marder, 2 shots = ~ 60% Health
15:03 – W2 fires at house containing 3 man, vet2 Tank Buster squad. Squad gets out, building destroyed
15:15 – B1 Hulls down & Repairs
15:27 – W2 attacked by 3 man, vet2 and 2 man Tank Buster squad = ~50% Health
16:38 - W2 attacked by 3 man, vet2 and 2 man Tank Buster squad = ~10% Health
16:50 – W2 runs into middle of city, no support, into Marder = W2 Destroyed
18:04 – B1 attacked by 3 man Tank buster squad
18:08 – B1 destroys moving vet2-3 man, and 2 man Tank buster squads
18:13 – B1 Attacked by Marder. Two hits = ~ 50% Health
20:16 – B1 Attacked by Marder again
20:21 – B1 fires at moving 3 man tank buster squad. Kills 1 man but destroys Marder
21:30 – B1 Hulls down to repair (2nd repair)
24:40 – B1 attacked by Pak (2 hits) and Jadg (1 hit)
24:48 – B1 Decrews Vet 2 Pak
24:49 – B1 hit by Goliath & Jadg (1 hit)
24:57 – B1 hit by Jadg (1 hit) and Panzer faust
25:03 – B1 destroyed by Jadg
27:12 – Second AVRE deployed by Bolt – Code Name B2
27:19 – Third AVRE deployed by Wind – Code name W3
28:34 – B2 hit by Pak (2 hits)
28:39 – B2 Decrews Pak
           -B2 attacked by Jadg (1 hit) = ~ 60% Health
28:54 – W3 fires at moving, vanilla PG’s. = Misses
30:41 – W3 fires at moving Tank Busters, misses but knocks squad down to 10%
31:15 – B2 destroys 5 man volks squad in church
31:16 – B2 destroyed by jadg
32:38 – W3 destroys stolen 17 pdr – crew & gun
34:16 – W3, Middle of city, unsupported – Destroyed by Panther & Jadg



Analysis: You are doing it wrong.

Replay attached

[pqumsieh]

Yeah, based on tanks write up sounds like its killing fairly effective and as intended. The problem might just be the cost and even the pool.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Uh, did you read his writeup?

There a 5 AVRE's in that game and their combined kills come nowhere close to compensating for their cost. Of the 5, only B1 earned its cost back (many of the others came nowhere close). And that's with 2 repairs. Can you even imagine how pointless it would be to buy a single repair AVRE if there is a 1 in 5 chance it can earn its cost with 2?


It's in keeping from the data we've seen in all the other replays in terms of the average ratio of AVRE's doing more then they cost (spoiler alert, it's a very bad ratio), and that's before you even get into opportunity cost.

[tank130]

You are missing the most important part of that equation.

They came no where close to earning their cost back because they were used incorrectly and often recklessly.

Cruising down city streets unsupported. No AI around to protect from Tank buster attacks. Not AT around to protect from Marder, jadg, and Panther attacks.

Wind I suck, there is no question.....but I think you need a serious dose of L2P on this particular subject. I have always thought of you as an ass, but a very good player. watch this replay and you will see how poorly you handled this unit.

You will never gain back your investment using it like that.

In the first 3 minutes you had the first AVRE on the field you allowed a pak & a marder to get off two shots each on it. A little scouting would have let you know they were sitting there.

1 min, 10 secs after you bring on your second one, you allow it to get attacked by a Marder and pak getting off two shots again.

Then because you have no AI support, you get rushed by tank buster squads.
Then you run it into the middle of the street with absolutely no support at all and it gets taken out by another Marder

I play this shitty all the time, but I sure as hell do not go ballistic on our balance team and scream like a stuck pig with claims of injustice and lunacy.

I think you owe these people an apology.

[XIIcorps]

But tank bad play style still does not justify the reckless nerfs applied to this unit without it ever being vigourously playtested by anyone on the illuminati balance team.

The arguement still stands that this unit has been repeatedly hit with the nerf hammer for no apparent reasoning other then it has the potential to ruin someones vet instantly.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Text

So let me try to understand your really, really poor logic here.

We post 8 replays in this thread spread over 3 different players. In some of the replays AVRE's are used well, in some they are not. Most of the games feature well balanced teams, spread across a variety of maps, with a multitude of different specific circumstances where AVRE's are firing and used. Despite all this, in the overwhelming majority of instances an individual AVRE comes nowhere close to earning its cost.

But nope. One game where I use my AVRE's to a highly mediocre degree in a game where 1/3rd of my team consists of one of the currently most difficult players to have on your team in the mod and it's case closed and the BT team deserves an apology.


You are not thinking this through. Not at all. This is a demonstration of a lack of understanding of basic scientific controls and the need for a sizeable pool of data to draw conclusions on. You also have apparently no understanding of how removing for subjective variables (like one player's abillity) is the whole reason you draw data points from multiple users spread over multiple games.


But here is my challenge to you:

Get a brits company and get some AVRE's. Use them in the way you think they should be used. Post some replays of you using the AVRE  -- if you're honest (and though I personally doubt you are I hope I'm wrong) you'll post the good and the bad.


I'm sure many people would find the results very helpful.

[tank130]

But here is my challenge to you:

Get a brits company and get some AVRE's. Use them in the way you think they should be used. Post some replays of you using the AVRE  -- if you're honest (and though I personally doubt you are I hope I'm wrong) you'll post the good and the bad.


I'm sure many people would find the results very helpful.

Wind, do not ever cross the line of calling my honesty into question again.


Asking me to build an AVRE company to test it's ability is very puzzling to me. Why would you ask one of the shittier players in the mod to build a company to test the functionality of a unit? Are you that desperate for supporting evidence that you will take the data from a player who is shitty with the units he actually uses often?

Let me save you and everyone else the trouble. If I use an AVRE, it will not recoup it's costs. Not sure what value that has coming from a player of my level, but whatever floats your boat.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Asking me to build an AVRE company to test it's ability is very puzzling to me. Why would you ask one of the shittier players in the mod to build a company to test the functionality of a unit? Are you that desperate for supporting evidence that you will take the data from a player who is shitty with the units he actually uses often?

Here is how a gathering of data for a proper analysis works:

You get samples of all kinds across the range of possibility. In this case, you would need to get players of all skill levels, backgrounds, experience etc. You would need replays on different maps, with different teams, etc. This is called controlling for variables and mitigating factors and it's harmed by homogenizing your data points.

Simply providing replays of players percieved to be "good" would be intellectually foolish and counter productive to the goal of this entire operation.  You need the good, the bad and the ugly. How else could you accurately determine the average performance of an AVRE in the current EiR metagame if you only took data from one group of players?

Are all units in EiR balanced to only how they might perform when used by the best players? You might want to check in with you balance team on that one.


If you are unwilling to participate in using AVRE's and providing data, that's your prerogative. But injecting yourself into a discussion of balance on a unit you refuse to use is the very height of illogical and unethical scientific inquiry. It also doesn't help when you don't seem to understand the basic fundamentals of gathering data for a proper analysis and end up obfuscating the process through that lack of understanding.

Wind, do not ever cross the line of calling my honesty into question again.

No.

[Unkn0wn]

Are all units in EiR balanced to only how they might perform when used by the best players? You might want to check in with you balance team on that one.

Are you saying we shouldn't just balance on the higher levels of skill, like any other RTS that takes itself seriously? lol

[TheWindCriesMary]

Are you saying we shouldn't just balance on the higher levels of skill, like any other RTS that takes itself seriously? lol

only

Read properly, or  stop interjecting inane, clumsy misinterpretations into the discussion. Otherwise we have to waste time going back and correcting your sardonic throwaway jab.

You also don't play the mod so why you insist on interjecting  here to begin with baffles and perplexes. People are trying to do real work here to get proper data and it just smacks of petty buffoonery to keep interfering in a mod for which you are currently utterly irrelevant.

[Mysthalin]

Yeah, based on tanks write up sounds like its killing fairly effective and as intended. The problem might just be the cost and even the pool.

You read one write-up, without going in-depth into it and pass judgement?

Look, I understand being biased towards your own decisions, where you want them to be right - but you're being ridiculous. There's a reason why I called for a lot of data here.

Are you saying we shouldn't just balance on the higher levels of skill, like any other RTS that takes itself seriously? lol

When's the last time you played EiRR? The days of 5 3-man stomp teams are long gone.

[TheWindCriesMary]

You read one write-up, without going in-depth into it and pass judgement?

Look, I understand being biased towards your own decisions, where you want them to be right - but you're being ridiculous. There's a reason why I called for a lot of data here.

Even worse the write-up didn't even support, in the least, his conclusion. It showed 4 out of 5 avre's coming nowhere close to earning their cost back and yet somehow "looks like AVRE is working/killing as intended" and "hmm based on this writeup I didn't read closely 2 new values might be the problem" -- recalling the exact problem of "fast and loose tinker balancing" that I mentioned in the other thread.

It represents the very fundamental essence of why I am so critical of the way balance is conducted around here: that is to say, predicated on emotion rather than reason and the self-imposed "gospel" of opinions and hypothetical over actual evidence or data. Where units can be nerfed or buffed on the very slimmest of reasoning simply and where changes are made simply because they can. If that's also the way it's done at Relic then may the imaginary spaghetti monster in the sky have mercy on COH 2.

[Unkn0wn]

Lol, so you are saying just because I don't play at the moment I can't make any statements on how RTS games are normally balanced? That's just mind boggling.

[TheWindCriesMary]

No, you can do whatever you want.

I said it was baffling and perplexing that you make a point of accidentally (or deliberately) misreading things in order to sidetrack the conversation with a sardonic barb... especially given that you don't play the mod and haven't played it actively in a long time.

[Unkn0wn]

I wasn't misreading anything, I said 'just'. But you seem to have missed that.

Well on a more related note, I wanted to commend Mysthalin on this undertaking, it'd be amazing if a unit performance assessment was always done this thorough by both the public and the BT alike.