Bergen 2v2, Last 5 mins funny as hell

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[Smokaz]

its cloak that makes them good, not the double shreks. how can you nerf cloak without making base storms without shreks (other upgrades) worse

[GrayWolf]

Yes buddy, I can have shrekstorms and pIVs buddy, cos im so good buddy, ufeelmebuddy. Let me tell you a lil secret how to do it: p4s cost fuel, shreks mostly munition
 
6x280 + 6x25 = 1830 buddy, and you can have like 2500 munitions if you want to, buddy. So yes buddy, that means it is possible to field 6 doublesherks and some p4s buddy. But nice try buddy.
Btw: you just went full retarded.

42 pop ? 

you just went full retarded.

Are you depressed or sth ?

[Sharpshooter824]

its cloak that makes them good, not the double shreks. how can you nerf cloak without making base storms without shreks (other upgrades) worse

Making Blitz decloak units would be a good start, decreasing movement speed further while in cloak or nerfing their armor so that they are much more killable when caught would also be a step in the right direction in my humble opinion

[rolcsika0128]

42 pop ?  

tankedit: Unrelated pic removed

What on earth made you think I meant 6 storms on the field at once? ..... p4, bike, 2 storm, or ostwind, bike flamepio, 2 storm... man use your brain... It must be hard for the first time, but come on.....

[CrazyWR]

the people trying to defend double shrek storms here should give an indication to the devs/balance team how stupid this ability/combination is.

[ick312]

the people trying to defend double shrek storms here should give an indication to the devs/balance team how stupid this ability/combination is.

and idiots should just be banned for their stupidity

you are actually a quite good example for what messed up this balance. Get personal before making the hard way of arguing.

[CrazyWR]

ok well...mysthalin summed up the whole argument against double storm shreks awhile back and nobody has refuted it yet so...

[ick312]

then is everything said! no need to offend anyone! just let it stay as it is

[tank130]

Can anyone provide an intelligent counter argument to this?

Because 2 2-man double shrek storm squads need twice as much time to kill a sherman compared to 2 4-man double shrek storm squads, right? Doesn't really matter anyway, your post is a red herring one at best.

Price efficiency isn't at all the main issue - I didn't even mention it. The main issue is the pop efficiency which is literally twice as good as anything else in the game, period. Single shrek storms are fine. MP44 storms are fine. Bundle Grenade storms are fine. 10 popcap of AT being able to instantly kill almost every single tank the allies can field in a single burst without warning? Not OK.

To be able to spot any and every excedingly dangerous unit across a front such as neuville you need 3 jeeps/bikes on at once. You need 3 bikes to efficiently ward a singular tank from 2 storm squads, with a tonne more micro. And there will be no guarantee of defence. You will need other units on top of the bikes and tank to handle the 10 popcap stormtroopers once they're found.

That's not penalizing poor scouting. That's buttraping anyone and everyone, regardless of their scouting, because they didn't bring a David company of pure rifles, or an Elitegren company of pure airborne.

You want to penalize a tank rush? Volk fausts do that fine. Regular shreks do that fine. Single cloaked shreks would do that fine as well. Mines do it excellently. Goliaths do it with a smirk on their trolly paintjob. Double shrek stormtroopers are not a mandatory thing in the axis arsenal to stand again the apparently omnipotent allied tank rush.

"But if we look at OJ simpson who committed murder and got away with it, then there is no reason to punish anyone for torturing and killing a few jews in their spare time"

2x Stormshreks are too good against everything - not just shermans. And, unlike stormtroopers, shermans can't just hide against every single thing in the world that can counter them in a reliable and efficient fashion.

Claiming that stormtroopers are "expensive" is as ludicrous as claiming shermans are "expensive". A double-shrek stormtrooper is literally 20% of your base munitions pool (used to be even less, but even then the argument for them being "expensive" was made) - while a sherman is 18.33% of your base fuel pool. Considering that shermans cost more base manpower and that their anti-infantry and survivability add-ons are more costly than their stormtrooper equivalents - it seriously makes no sense to claim that a stormtrooper with double shreks is expensive while at the same time stating shermans are cheap.

And that's ignoring the pool value and (far more important) firepower/popcap saturation factor that comes into place.

I still play more than you Mal, and I have continued playing for far longer after you effectively retired.

The gratuitous options that stormtroopers have on top of their already ludicrous cloak and health-per-man to run away, survive and live to alpha-strike another target don't even have to be mentioned to realise that the double-shrek stormtrooper is a ridiculously powerful unit. The only other thing that could even remotely come close in terms of such ability is the sniper - who:
*does not have any sort of efficient protection against it's hard counters (the jeep and the recon tommy)
*requires, at the very least, 2.8 times more pop-cap and 2.66 times more munitions to have the same instant-kill effect on the most vulnearable of it's targets (a grenadier squad) (with the comparison being made to the storms ability to take on a sherman - which is far more expensive than a grenadier. If assuming a fight with things like M10s and M8s - these required ratios becomes even more ridiculous). Although the range factor remains valid - it is more than off-set by the levels of popcap and resources effectively instantly-destroyed by both sorts of unit.

All of this could be fixed by merely removing the ability to buy dual-shreks on stormtoopers. Single shreks still allow for surprise supporting AT, or - with sufficient investment in popcap, alpha-strike capability, while not being ridiculous in the firepower saturation per popcap as is found today. Removing double-shreks could also shed far better light on the state of stormtroopers with StG44s - and it may well be that the quad-STG44 upgrade could be knocked down in price after understanding that, other than the ludicrous power of double-shreks, storms are actually an OK unit, and that with quad-STG44s they are actually overpriced for what they achieve.

Fix problems by starting at their source, people.

[Spartan_Marine88]

There is no argument with it, Myst is right. Lets be honest here though, there is nothing wrong with dual shreks. There is nothing wrong with storm troopers. Dual shreks on grenadiers is fine for example. Its the combination of the two that becomes the issue.

[ick312]

i dont like saying this.

But get on the field and use them on your own. Theres a shitload of counters cct + arty, normal bar inf, just move your tanks a bit from time to time. The whole alphastrike thing WORKS ONLY if you give the axis the time to sneak in OR if you charge without inf support. AND THEN HAPPENS WHAT YOU DESERVE!!!

And what everyone seems to ignore: They walk slower, they need time to get in position - it is your own fault if you give that time. Any allied player:"HAHAHA idiot axis doesnt run away with his grens, my sherman kills them ALL HAHAHAHA idiot!" - Alpha strike - any allied player:"2xShrek are so op"

Sorry devs, but removing the alphastrike ability from the storms is a step in the wrong direction.
There are not many playstyles holding the allied shit back. and 2x shrek storms are one of the few which are left.

ps.: forgot to say. 2 storms alpha striking the sherman with inf one bar squad close. Ok you kill the sherman (400 MP 220 munition 260 fuel) and you lose 600 MP and 600 munition. Is that a good deal? idk

[CrazyWR]

its like you didn't even read what myst posted.  I'll quote the relevant section for you.

You want to penalize a tank rush? Volk fausts do that fine. Regular shreks do that fine. Single cloaked shreks would do that fine as well. Mines do it excellently. Goliaths do it with a smirk on their trolly paintjob. Double shrek stormtroopers are not a mandatory thing in the axis arsenal to stand again the apparently omnipotent allied tank rush.

"But if we look at OJ simpson who committed murder and got away with it, then there is no reason to punish anyone for torturing and killing a few jews in their spare time"

[ick312]

to your post mysth
- faust dont penalize tank rush, you know that: give 1 shot get crushed (or with less skilled player drive away). Shreks do a terrible job. actually the best penalty for a tankrush is and stays :____ the sticky.
YES it does penalize allied players who are just moving with out infantryscouting/ cover and its a buttrape for allied players sitting there giving the axis player more then enough time to sneak arround AND if the allied player forgot his riflemen then the stormies get out.  (2x shrek storms dont stand a chance vs infantry and then are at least 300 munition gone high risk high reward)
so basically they rape if you rush in without inf cover to take those fuckers out OR you sit arround not moving the interesting targets again without inf cover. Well yeah then they rape till the blood comes out.

i read his post did you read mine?

[CrazyWR]

yes, it failed to take into acccount the fact that if allies lead with infantry, they get picked off by the tank, while if they lead with the tank to take shots, the storm shreks can simply stand next to or slightly behind the tank, fire off a volley, and melt into the background, where the infantry can't touch them no matter how many squads he has on the field.  Meanwhile the Allied tank will be dead.  There's no surviving. 


These sorts of insta-kill abilities have been removed from EIRR over the years consistently.  Only dual shrek stormtroopers are left.  Why they are still in the game I have no idea.  Bar suppression has been nerfed, g43 slow got changed, bren button has been nerfed, dual shrek storms are still there though.  Explain to me how thats reasonable?

[ick312]

yes, it failed to take into acccount the fact that if allies lead with infantry, they get picked off by the tank, while if they lead with the tank to take shots, the storm shreks can simply stand next to or slightly behind the tank, fire off a volley, and melt into the background, where the infantry can't touch them no matter how many squads he has on the field.  Meanwhile the Allied tank will be dead.  There's no surviving.  

Yes this can happen its right. and tbh i also had such a situation and my pershing was going straight to hell. But let me ask you something - isnt that the price for the stupidity to attack where your opponent expect you to attack. At least in the 2 cases where i lose my persh, has it been my stupidity.

and btw there are enough options to approach with your infantry while your tank is behind it. IF you really want to attack frontally. smoke (15 ammo) -mortar smoke -ranger fire up - arty and approach behind it.

BUT ACTUALLY IT DOESNT MATTER!!! Because the main tool to break an enemy line should be the flanking (and hitting your enemy there where he isnt prepared)! But what happens is now that each faction just get stuff to attack frontal and getting away with it. And far worse eirr is only about gaging up.

Stormtrooper arent op - its just the allies who got used to frontal attacks

ps: last game proves my point.

[Sharpshooter824]

Yes this can happen its right. and tbh i also had such a situation and my pershing was going straight to hell. But let me ask you something - isnt that the price for the stupidity to attack where your opponent expect you to attack. At least in the 2 cases where i lose my persh, has it been my stupidity.

and btw there are enough options to approach with your infantry while your tank is behind it. IF you really want to attack frontally. smoke (15 ammo) -mortar smoke -ranger fire up - arty and approach behind it.

BUT ACTUALLY IT DOESNT MATTER!!! Because the main tool to break an enemy line should be the flanking (and hitting your enemy there where he isnt prepared)! But what happens is now that each faction just get stuff to attack frontal and getting away with it. And far worse eirr is only about gaging up.

Stormtrooper arent op - its just the allies who got used to frontal attacks

ps: last game proves my point.

The game you are referring to involves chain using a pershing, referencing a bad player's bad use of a unit is just silly and you know it, we even had radio triangulation up on the storms so she should've known it was there, your statement has nothing to do with this conversation frankly.

[ick312]

The game you are referring to involves chain using a pershing, referencing a bad player's bad use of a unit is just silly and you know it, we even had radio triangulation up on the storms so she should've known it was there, your statement has nothing to do with this conversation frankly.

i am not referring to that game- i might sound strange to you, but i play also games without you - can u imangine that?
 "your statement has nothing to do with this conversation frankly."

[PonySlaystation]

Because 2 2-man double shrek storm squads need twice as much time to kill a sherman compared to 2 4-man double shrek storm squads, right?

No, but they'll get insta gibbed by the sherman and other nearby units the second they uncloak. Not only causing him to lose a heep of munitions but also dropping the schrecks for you to use.

To be able to spot any and every exceedingly dangerous unit across a front such as neuville you need 3 jeeps/bikes on at once. You need 3 bikes to efficiently ward a singular tank from 2 storm squads, with a tonne more micro. And there will be no guarantee of defence. You will need other units on top of the bikes and tank to handle the 10 popcap stormtroopers once they're found.

You have to get behind enemy positions to be able to hit the rear/sides of the tank in slow moving cloak and you have to get close so that you don't miss all your shots and to get away with few casualties you need a tank close nearby with keep it moving, this requires time, coordination, scouting, micromanagement and it's very risky, if the enemy protects his tank then it's very difficult to get in position without being spotted and to get out alive.

You don't need three jeeps, you need infantry to support your tank, something you should have in the first place, without combined arms you'll get hit by any AT piece.

The problem is the Blitzkrieg ability that allows them to cloak and sprint, it allows them to easily get into position and then get out alive. It takes away all the effort, risk and skilful manouvering, much like the broken permanent sprint ability for FJ tank busters and sprint and cloak AB sniper, again it was the sprint that was the issue, not the unit itself.

The only competent players I have seen relying on double schrecks for AT, mainly Rolcsika and Dnice, they rely soley on Blitzkrieg to be able to use their storms to good effect, without Blitzkrieg, their company wouldn't be nearly as powerful and difficult to counter. All you'd is an ATG to negate tanks and keep it moving and some infantry to negate the storms.

[Dnicee]

OH look it's this thread again!

btw 1+ to ponygaystation

[Sharpshooter824]

No, but they'll get insta gibbed by the sherman and other nearby units the second they uncloak. Not only causing him to lose a heep of munitions but also dropping the schrecks for you to use.

You have to get behind enemy positions to be able to hit the rear/sides of the tank in slow moving cloak and you have to get close so that you don't miss all your shots and to get away with few casualties you need a tank close nearby with keep it moving, this requires time, coordination, scouting, micromanagement and it's very risky, if the enemy protects his tank then it's very difficult to get in position without being spotted and to get out alive.

You don't need three jeeps, you need infantry to support your tank, something you should have in the first place, without combined arms you'll get hit by any AT piece.

The problem is the Blitzkrieg ability that allows them to cloak and sprint, it allows them to easily get into position and then get out alive. It takes away all the effort, risk and skilful manouvering, much like the broken permanent sprint ability for FJ tank busters and sprint and cloak AB sniper, again it was the sprint that was the issue, not the unit itself.

The only competent players I have seen relying on double schrecks for AT, mainly Rolcsika and Dnice, they rely soley on Blitzkrieg to be able to use their storms to good effect, without Blitzkrieg, their company wouldn't be nearly as powerful and difficult to counter. All you'd is an ATG to negate tanks and keep it moving and some infantry to negate the storms.

Just FYI, AB snipers were removed completely.. and those dropped shrecks can simply be transferred to another storm squad