WW2 and Russians

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[nikomas]

Bullshit Warning - http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/60796-the-beginning-of-world-war-ii/

The Beginning of World War II

No one wanted war. Yet, when Germany attacked Poland on September 1, 1939, other European countries felt they had to act. The result was six long years of World War II.

The Design

Adolf Hitler wanted more land, especially in the east, to expand Germany according to the Nazi policy of lebensraum. Hitler used the harsh limitations that were set against Germany in the Versailles Treaty as a pretext for Germany's right to acquire land where German-speaking people lived. Germany successfully used this reasoning to envelop two entire countries without starting a war.

    Austria :On March 13, 1938, Germany took over Austria (termed the Anschluss) — a contingeny specifically disallowed in the Versailles Treaty.

    Czechoslovakia :At the Munich Conference on September 28-29, 1938, the French and the British handed Germany a large portion of Czechoslovakia. Hitler then took the rest of Czechoslovakia by March 1939.


Many people have wondered why Germany was allowed to take over both Austria and Czechoslovakia without a fight. The simple reason is that Great Britain and France did not want to repeat the bloodshed of World War I. They believed, wrongly as it turned out, they could avoid another world war by appeasing Hitler with a few concessions (such as Austria and Czechoslovakia). At this time, Great Britain and France did not understood that Hitler's goal of land acquisition was much, much larger than any one country.

The Excuse

After having gained both Austria and Czechoslovakia, Hitler was confident that he could again move east, this time acquiring Poland without having to fight Britain or France.

So that Germany did not officially seem the aggressor (which it was), Hitler needed an excuse for attacking Poland. It was Heinrich Himmler who came up with the idea; thus the plan was code-named Operation Himmler.


On the night of August 31, 1939, Nazis took an unknown prisoner from one of their concentration camps, dressed him in a Polish uniform, took him to the town of Gleiwitz (on the border of Poland and Germany), and then shot him. The staged scene with the dead prisoner dressed in a Polish uniform was supposed to appear as a Polish attack against a German radio station.


Hitler used this staged attack as the excuse to invade Poland.

Blitzkrieg

At 4:45 on the morning of September 1, 1939 (the morning following the staged attack), German troops entered Poland. The sudden, immense attack by the Germans was called a Blitzkrieg («lightening war»).

The German air attack hit so quickly that most of Poland's air force was destroyed while still on the ground. To hinder Polish mobilization, the Germans bombed bridges and roads. Groups of marching soldiers were machine-gunned from the air.

But the Germans did not just aim for soldiers, they also shot at civilians. Groups of fleeing civilians often found themselves under attack. The more confusion and chaos the Germans could create, the slower Poland could mobilize its forces.

Using 62 divisions, six of which were armored and ten mechanized, the Germans invaded Poland by land. Poland was not defenseless, but they could not compete with Germany's motorized army. With only 40 divisions, none of which were armored, and with nearly their entire air force demolished, the Poles were at a severe disadvantage. The Polish cavalry were no match for German tanks.

Declarations of War

On September 1, 1939, the beginning of the German attack, Great Britain and France sent Adolf Hitler an ultimatum — either withdraw German forces from Poland or Great Britain and France would go to war against Germany.

On September 3, with Germany's forces penetrating deeper into Poland, Great Britain and France both declared war on Germany.

World War II had begun.

We should always remember victins of the War and valiant soldiers who paid the ultimate price fighting for their home and freedom.

I do like Russians what with putting all the blame on the western countries, failing to neglect that they made a non aggression pact and thus enabled the Germans to do what they did. Not only that but they invaded Poland themselves and took a bunch of the Baltic, in other words, the exact same thing German did isn't it?

But hey, why let that get in the way of true history (according to Russia). I'm not going to buy it when people say that it's not the majority of Russians that hold this view because pretty much every single Russian game developer that matters seem to do so and so does a lot of their players.

inb4 Unknown defends this somehow.

[PonySlaystation]

Polish cavalry against german tanks? did they learn history from polandball comics?

I can't blame them though. The second they step foot in school they hear: Russia is the best! we we're first in space etc etc! bla bla bla brainwashing bla bla bla historical revisionism bla bla bla propaganda bla bla bla overzealous patriotism.

This sums up what the average russian knows about ww2: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1305871/board/thread/168341873?d

Also here are some facts from a real russian historian: http://youtu.be/d7Dyb-A2ljk?t=3m49s

[Spartan_Marine88]

Polish cavalry against german tanks? did they learn history from polandball comics?

Polish Calvary were used against tanks, however Polish Calvary did not charge tanks.



Most countries still had some Cav at the start of ww2. It was a useful way to get troops across the field usefully. While the lance using was a myth, most cav with guns would also dismount and use guns.

And lets be honest "Mounted Infantry defeated by Tank Battalion" doesn't sound as good as "Cavalry Charge against Tanks resulted in Failure" in the home propaganda.

In most non-biased history books you can read up on Stalin training 1 million paratroopers on the western front against Germany during their treaty. (Hint: Paratroopers are not defensive units) There is evidence that Hitler preempted by striking first rendering the units advantage useless by forcing them to go on the defensive. Of course as this doesn't follow suit with the Peace Loving Russian People Propaganda at the time, great lengths were made to wipe all mention of it.

Although smart historians just go with the "Many reasons for WW2" and leave it at that.

[Sachaztan]

"Stalin may have been a dictator, but he was no Hitler. Stalin was the average ruthless dictator, but who happened to rule a big country AND was competent in politics. "

lol, that nikitin guy sure is a great armchair historian

[Unkn0wn]

Taking a rubbish incomplete and possibly coloured text that so happens to omit the soviet-share in the invasion of poland, on a random game forum and using that as evidence that somehow all Russians believe this crap?

I do like Russians what with putting all the blame on the western countries, failing to neglect that they made a non aggression pact and thus enabled the Germans to do what they did. Not only that but they invaded Poland themselves and took a bunch of the Baltic, in other words, the exact same thing German did isn't it?

But hey, why let that get in the way of true history (according to Russia). I'm not going to buy it when people say that it's not the majority of Russians that hold this view because pretty much every single Russian game developer that matters seem to do so and so does a lot of their players.

That's like me taking some text from some white-trash born-again Christain in the US and using that to illustrate how dumb all Americans are.
How many games created by Russians do you actually know? Have you been to any Russian war museums? Or read any Russian books? Or even read anything on WW2 from a Russian outside of some trashy internet discussion forum? (For example from Russians who actually studied History)

You can find idiots who take to the internet in every country, on a variety of issues, it just so happens that history and WW2 in particular is one theme that seems to attract these people in Russia. If you're honestly going to generalize a whole people and what they know about their own history based on what you pick up on the internet, then you probably too deserve to be categorised as an idiot.

[Unkn0wn]

In most non-biased history books you can read up on Stalin training 1 million paratroopers on the western front against Germany during their treaty. (Hint: Paratroopers are not defensive units) There is evidence that Hitler preempted by striking first rendering the units advantage useless by forcing them to go on the defensive.

This is the first I read about this and honestly, I have read a lot of history book and none of them has ever mentioned this as a cause for Hitler going to war. EVEN if it were true, which it may very well be, there is no evidence to support the claim that Hitler somehow felt threated or went to war 'preemptively' with this factor in mind. (Though he may have held the believe that war between Russians and Germans was inevitable at some point, it certainly wasn't based on some sort of intel pointing in that direction, but rather on idealogical grounds. )

Quite on the contrary, Hitler vastly underestimated the combat capability of the Soviet Union and thought the war would be a done deal before the Winter, there is a lot of evidence for that. You can't vastly underestimate the enemy AND feel threatened at the same time, those are completely opposite to each other.

Let's not forget that Western history books aren't always so unbiased as we like to believe just as well. History is written by the victor, and the Cold War did a lot of harm to objective historical analysis of WW2 and the way we portray the Soviet Union's history in particular. (Which is not to say most of what is written in these History books isn't true)

[nikomas]

Taking a rubbish incomplete and possibly coloured text that so happens to omit the soviet-share in the invasion of poland, on a random game forum and using that as evidence that somehow all Russians believe this crap?

That's like me taking some text from some white-trash born-again Christain in the US and using that to illustrate how dumb all Americans are.
How many games created by Russians do you actually know? Have you been to any Russian war museums? Or read any Russian books? Or even read anything on WW2 from a Russian outside of some trashy internet discussion forum? (For example from Russians who actually studied History)

You can find idiots who take to the internet in every country, on a variety of issues, it just so happens that history and WW2 in particular is one theme that seems to attract these people in Russia. If you're honestly going to generalize a whole people and what they know about their own history based on what you pick up on the internet, then you probably too deserve to be categorised as an idiot.

Wargaming and now Gaijin are possibly the largest international russian game companies as it stands, most certainly the well known anyway and both of them have their seniors post shit like that, that administrator on wargaming posting stuff making him sound like an outright stalinist a couple of years back. On top of this their vocal players seem to say much the same, then you can find rather extreme nationalism on any game that has a russian faction in it, from Russian players only playing Russia.

Unkn0wn, YOU are the one saying "No, It's not like that at all" yet a lot of people seem out to prove you otherwise. You also clearly did not read the link, this was on the FRONT PAGE of warthunder as a NEWS article, posted there by the developers themselves, calling it a "Random forum post" shows you put about as much effort into researching what you say as I do.

On top of this the only argument you put forth is "You don't know Russians as well as I do" and "It's a bad sample". Your Christian American white trash analogy is appropriately trash to, you know why? While we all like to make fun of them they are a MINORITY of the people I find playing videogames with. The Russians in this case are a MAJORITY, just go look on the steam forum. A large majority of the ones that identify as Russians/try to post in English seem to hold the opinions I said.



The fact that the country is an oppressive, backwaters place that has even outright banned Homosexuality does not really support your case but in fact works very much against it.


Personalties and all that other things aside, one thing is very indisputably clear. There is a popular Russian version of WWII and there is the rest of the worlds version of WWII and most any Russian I've read anything from on the subject thinks the rest of the world is wrong. I'll strangle someone if I have to read how Stalin just did what he had to and how they're the heroic victors of a WWII Germany started one.more.time.

[Unkn0wn]

You sound so upset, I don't even know why you are taking offense.

I'm not saying 'no it's not like that at all'. Learn to read for a change, I said that these are idiots, who as a matter of fact are not representative of what a walk in a Russian museum, a talk with someone who actually studies this material and quite a number of Russian literature will teach you about 'How Russians view WW2 or Stalin. But guess what, there's idiots and bigots everywhere, Russia is no different in that regard. Just because a large majority of Russians on the internet, the few mind you that can actually write in English, voice some retarded opinion does not in fact turn that into something you can then extrapolate to the entirety of the Russian people.

Also, it is incredibly low to equate a people with its system. By that logic, all Iranians are probably 'evil people' when in fact, anybody who has traveled to Iran will tell you that they are some of the warmest people in the world. You can't hold a people accountable for the retarded shit its political system produces, unless that political system is actually a democracy. Most Russians don't give two flying fucks whether you're gay or straight.

It's kind of sad I have to go in and defend 'Russian people' like this, but quite frankly, the blind and retarded shit I hear from Westerners about Russians is just as disturbing as the uneducated trash these Russian internauts produce using their google translators.

Tell you what, learn Russian and start by reading russian historical sources and debates, both in writing and on the internet, then come tell us about how YOU know for a fact that ALL Russians have a completely different, and biased, view on WW2. And in case you still don't understand what this is about: this is about you generalizing a whole people, like a bigot, and it doesn't matter if  you do it to Russians, Indians, Americans or Turks. It's stupid.

[PonySlaystation]

That's like me taking some text from some white-trash born-again Christain in the US and using that to illustrate how dumb all Americans are.

Because they're uneducated. Russians aren't uneducated, their education just follows an incredibly one sided perspective and the majority of people believe what they're thought in school. That's how it is now. In the Soviet Union it was worse, since you had to be a Stalinist doctrinaire in order to archive higher education.

Quite on the contrary, Hitler vastly underestimated the combat capability of the Soviet Union and thought the war would be a done deal before the Winter, there is a lot of evidence for that. You can't vastly underestimate the enemy AND feel threatened at the same time, those are completely opposite to each other.

I wouldn't say he underestimated the combat effectiveness of the Red Army. The Blitzkrieg was so effective that in the first few months of Operation Barbarossa millions of Russian soldiers were captured, Russian aircraft was shot down while still at the ground and the German Wehrmacht was advancing 50km per day. Invading a super power with little to no resistance is not underestimating. Dismantling nearly half of the Red Army with minimal casualties is not underestimating. Threatened is misleading. Russia was still recuperating from the civil war and Stalin's purges. The once great Russia, could not even defeat small Finland. (Note how they were able to do so easily in 1808). He saw a once in a lifetime opportunity to strike and win a swift war while the Red Army was still weak. Had he waited longer, they would have been able to build up enough strength to repel a German attack or even enough to invade Germany.

[DarkSoldierX]

I wouldn't say he underestimated the combat effectiveness of the Red Army. The Blitzkrieg was so effective that in the first few months of Operation Barbarossa millions of Russian soldiers were captured, Russian aircraft was shot down while still at the ground and the German Wehrmacht was advancing 50km per day. Invading a super power with little to no resistance is not underestimating. Dismantling nearly half of the Red Army with minimal casualties is not underestimating. Threatened is misleading. Russia was still recuperating from the civil war and Stalin's purges. The once great Russia, could not even defeat small Finland. (Note how they were able to do so easily in 1808). He saw a once in a lifetime opportunity to strike and win a swift war while the Red Army was still weak. Had he waited longer, they would have been able to build up enough strength to repel a German attack or even enough to invade Germany.

I don't know who taught you your history/english, but many German commanders including hitler though Russia would fall extremely quickly. They thought the red army had zero chance. That is the exact definition of underestimating.

[tank130]

Because they're uneducated. Russians Americans aren't uneducated, their education just follows an incredibly one sided perspective and the majority of people believe what they're thought taught in school. That's how it is now. In the Soviet Union USA it was worse, since you had to be a Stalinist doctrinaire white christian in order to achieve higher education.

Just thought I would fix that up.

[NightRain]

Have you been to any Russian war museums?

I went to Russian War museum in St.Petersburg, also the Naval Museum. The only thing I could understand there was this: Do touch not sign placed on a wall in Naval Museum. Everything else is in plain Russian so that visiting their museums is just giving them money without gaining any knowledge you wouldn't gain from a western one. Although they had dedicated a entire room for their war dogs honouring their effectiveness while all I remember from them was that they got scared of German panzers and ran beneath their own tanks whilst detonating charges tied to them.

Failure to defeat Finland lead Germans to believe that Russia would fall easily.

The only reason Russia took Finland so easily in 1808 was because Sweden was sucking its thumb and creating a imagination Army they promised to send to shores of Finland once Finland army was pinned down. It never came, fortresses surrendered because of Swedes being dumb and getting fooled and yadayadayada. Finland lost to Russia. It was a good thing in the end.

[PonySlaystation]

I don't know who taught you your history/english, but many German commanders including hitler though Russia would fall extremely quickly. They thought the red army had zero chance. That is the exact definition of underestimating.

It's not, the Red Army had zero chance. They were never able to stop the German advance. Only the Russian winter and harsh weather could do that. They underestimated the winter, but not the Red Army's combat effectiveness since it was poor. He thought lowly of them but he also knew that if he did not act now, the opportunity would be lost, Russia would grow stronger. So strong that they were able to compete with the Western Bloc in the Cold War. Hence it may be considered a preemptive strike.

[I2ay]

inb4 Unknown defends this somehow

That's like me taking some text from some white-trash born-again Christain in the US and using that to illustrate how dumb all Americans are.

And Unknown knocks it out of the park. Nikomas looks like a fool again!

[Bear]

Stalin has more civilians on the conscience than Hitler.
This makes Hitler not to a better person but Stalin is not worthy of respect.

The communism was for Hitler a Jewish conspiracy.
Marx, Engels and Lenin had Jewish roots.
For this reason, Russia was from the beginning the final destination for Hitler.
Stalin would have actually known this but obviously he was surpised that Hitler so fast attacks, since Germany already in the West was at war.

Hitler had ​​not made Blitzkrieg war in the Soviet Union. The attempt at a conquest of Leningrad and Stalingrad was not a blitzkrieg. The Russian national forces were largely destroyed but Hitler underestimated the Asian forces and failed in his delusion to build a line of defense.
Because of senseless commands to hold in all circumstances was several million men and thousands of tanks lacking for an effective defense.

Hitler apparently wrote in 1924 in his book "Mein Kampf": when a victory is not possible, the defeat must be so complete that the victors themselves must rebuild Germany and bring it to greater strength than before.
For this reason, I believe Hitler wanted not win and because of this there were the many senseless orders from him but he has achieved his goal.

[Baine]

Stalin has more civilians on the conscience than Hitler.

I think i spider! There goes yes the dog in the pan crazy! Now it falls me like sheds from my eyes! This discussion is for the cat.

[Bear]

The problem with Stalin and the Russians is that at that time apparently one in four people was in a camp and this was guarded from another one in four.
Stalin could make starved many millions of people, years before WW2 started.
The people who were not in the camp learned to be silent or just good to talk about Stalin. For this reason, Stalin is still revered today in Russia.

[nikomas]

And Unknown knocks it out of the park. Nikomas looks like a fool again!

Uh, yeah, because most Americans on the internet act like trailer trash hillbillies right? Aside from the fact that they're not, Unkn0wn can claim it's the same thing as when I think of Russians the way I do but he's got nothing to prove it other than his word. Because a MAJORITY of the Russians that go on Steam/Game forums from the few games I've seen them on (WT/WoT/CoH) seem to hold the views I described before.

If he wants me to believe what he says then he''ll have to show me people who think/act like he claims they do, because I can't see that they do. I find it a little difficult to think that only the Russians that actively play games are nationalistic assholes, if they're the younger generation they've got to get it from somewhere don't they?

[Sachaztan]

While I generally don't generalize™, I do encounter disturbing amounts of nationalistic fervor and historical revisionism when observing Russians on the net and in the media. It certainly does look like a pattern there.

[Bear]

it is right what Nikomas say...
the Russians wich express his self in public seem to be nationalistic assholes.
the homosexual are now their Jewish.
A clever move by putin, in order to divide the population and to prevail so...