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Author Topic: COH 2 is not bad.  (Read 21910 times)
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 09:43:14 am »

Yeah you still need the structures, it's just that once you have the structure the unit doesn't pop out the front door when it's done(or build a StuG in a combat zone)

You still have to build the unit and it just arrives from offmap
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Vermillion_Hawk Offline
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Posts: 1282



« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 11:04:05 am »

new engine

Barely iterated on the previous one to account for some new particle effects, different and more efficient unit values and the ColdTech system.

new resource system

A streamlined version of the previous system that is functionally identical.

new capturing points system

You stand in a small circle around the point to capture it as opposed to having to physically perform the action. Not only is it barely any different, it prevents exploits of the capture mechanics like light vehicle pushing.

new tiers

Once again, barely. Russians have almost identical copies of the American buildings with a different way of attaining them in that you no longer require a Supply Depot.

new doctrine system

The only legitimate point you have made thus far, and it essentially streamlines the first game's doctrines, whereby you essentially needed to specialize in one path or lose, and basically just gives you one path.

new unit deployment system

They come from off map instead of appearing next to a building. So revolutionary and different and a corruption of the previous game.

new cover system

It's literally exactly the same.

new building system

The buildings are new (sometimes in name and skin only), the mechanics are not.

new movement

If you count the ability to vault over objects (a very necessary and good addition) and the ability to reverse tanks with less micromanagement new movement then yes, new movement.

tank and weapon physics

They're exactly the same.

new defences

Not really, they just made sandbag walls a specific unit construction option and removed tank traps. Also no MG nest for the Soviets but since an MG nest often meant defeat as the Americans its ultimately meaningless.

countless new abilities for every unit

Exactly one (often useless, with some exceptions) per unit type, that sure is a countless number.

new damage and hit system

Exactly the same, except that it's now user-friendly in that the various armor types are gone and replaced with a numerical value for both armor and armor penetration that simplifies the balancing process, not to mention makes it easier for modders.

new terrain

Snow and ice, something the first game lacked, and a welcome addition in my books as it adds to the interactivity of the battlefield.

DLC doctrines

Which the British and Panzer Elite and ToV units totally weren't, in faction form.

pre game unit buffs

Your Conscripts can shoot a whole 5% faster. Game changer right there. EiRR does the same.

new UI

Only the second legitimate point you've made.

new map designs

Barely, seeing as they all follow the standard formula pretty nicely.

new cartoon graphics

This is just absolutely idiotic. I don't know where you even come up with this.

new suppression system

Exactly the same as the previous game, with the difference that mortars and artillery fortunately no longer suppress squads at a ridiculous rate.

radically new map designs with smaller maps

See 2 above.

fewer capture points etc

It varies from map to map but it's essentially exactly the same.

radically new unit changes like flamethrowers in halftracks, two man sniper teams in halftracks, six man mortar squads etc.

The third legitimate point you've made, and the team weapon changes barely matter except that they give you a chance to retreat from snipers. The overall health is very similar.

All this is way too much if you want to retain the same award winning gameplay. Just changing the defences so that you can't place regular mines, barbed wire and sand bags properly is a terrible idea or changing all the resouce points to convey the same resouce and having fewer capture points, it all makes it feels like dumbed down console version of the game and these are of course small changes. There are bigger changes which completely fuck up the gameplay.

Hell, I would love to have a list of what they didn't change, the WW2 theme? maybe in the next COH they will change that too.

My biggest gripe with the game is how all the battles feel like they are small scale, there is little back and fourth fighting. There is no fighting over haybales and building defenses and flanking or moving your MG up to attack because it's always small skirmishes and weather just slows down the fluid gameplay and restricts movement and where battles can take place, like water and shallow water, but it could also be because they haven't made a single decent map. The map design is awful, all maps are like The Scheldt 2.0. Only when they ported over Langres did it look like the game had some potential and for this reason I will give it another shot.

So "all of this" amounts to maybe 3 valid points in total, of which only one of them can be construed as a change to a major mechanic. The award winning gameplay is there, you're just an idiot. As I said, there are issues, but they can be fixed and are in the process of being fixed. You're so hopelessly enamoured with the first game that you automatically lash out at the sequel without first seeing that it's almost exactly the same. Little in truth has been changed, and was has been changed was ultimately necessary.
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PonySlaystation Offline
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Posts: 4136



« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 11:46:50 am »

So your answer is that they steamlined every feature and in other words cut essential parts and dumbed everything down?

Also yes, of course the capture point system is worse. Now you can capture points in combat, which is not possible in COH nor EIR. The idea is you fight, then you capture points, this is a large part of vCOH gameplay.

The reason that vCOH doctrines had two trees was so that you could adapt to different situations, people used both sides depending on what they faced. The DLC doctrines are just rehash of the same abilities you already have in different orders and there is no ability to adapt and choose a different tree if you need other abilities.

The idea that you have only one resource for capture points takes away many strategical parts of the game. The idea that you could focus on munitions for better equipment or fuel for vehicles and manpower for more units and to cut off enemy supply lines was a big part of the game. It was removed for no logical reason.

The defence building system is also terrible. You can't place defences where you want them, it's much more restricted, each side doesn't even have basic mines, barbed wire and other defences. Instead they have advanced versions that are more expensive, take more time and cover an entire defensive point, which is then nullified the second the enemy gets there. The entire stategical point of placing defences intelligently to help repel and attack is gone because you can only defend specific points, you can't spread out your defences or build barbed wire to protect your MG from enemy flanking, it's completely dumbed down. Sandbags only offer yellow cover and you have to build an entire wall of them. It makes no sense. Sand bags in vCOH were useful and rewarded good placement but was never overpowered.

Your Conscripts can shoot a whole 5% faster. Game changer right there. EiRR does the same.

Barely, seeing as they all follow the standard formula pretty nicely.

It's more like 12% after some grinding, which is a game changer and it means that it's more effective to build the same unit instead of using combined arms.

Maps that are in automatch should not have so many rivers and shallow water (rehashed as heavy snow) on them. How is every map looking like the Scheldt good map design? The weather system just slows down and restricts gameplay.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 12:18:36 pm by PonySlaystation » Logged

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aeroblade56 Offline
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 11:48:27 am »

coh2 might have the overall Same gameplay/design. but it doesn't have the same feel as Coh1

I will say the offmap arrival of units is a little annoying but no way gamebreaking.

I do feel like the damage seems very hit or miss sometimes either a mortar will kill 1 person or 6. same with infantry.

I do feel that some of the abilities although it is nice having them, does make certain units perform better then one would expect .

And the the would probably me 2x better if

1. they added modding
2. The UI was better.
3. The blizzards didnt happen every 5 minutes or so.(personal opinion)
4. you don't have lul halftracks with snipers and flames everywhere.

which you know could probably all be fixed with modding tools so you can all blame PQ on that one.
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Spartan_Marine88 Offline
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 12:09:26 pm »

So your answer is that they steamlined every feature and in other words cut essential parts and dumbed everything down?

hardly, the only dumbing thats going on is being quoted in my post.

Also yes, of course the capture point system is worse. Now you can capture points in combat, which is not possible in COH nor EIR.

Why is this a bad thing? A balance of power capping tool was created by one of the head modders for vcoh and was actually put into play in a few mods. EIRR would actually benefit from this imho as it would eliminate the whole wack-a-mole gameplay that happens late game.

coh2 might have the overall Same gameplay/design. but it doesn't have the same feel as Coh1

I will say the offmap arrival of units is a little annoying but no way gamebreaking.

I do feel like the damage seems very hit or miss sometimes either a mortar will kill 1 person or 6. same with infantry.

I do feel that some of the abilities although it is nice having them, does make certain units perform better then one would expect .

And the the would probably me 2x better if

1. they added modding
2. The UI was better.
3. The blizzards didnt happen every 5 minutes or so.(personal opinion)
4. you don't have lul halftracks with snipers and flames everywhere.

I think that it not feeling like COH 1 is a good thing. And to me units arriving off field just feels right.

other wise i largely agree with you, the blizzards should have been completely random, in occurrence, duration and intensity.
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clonetroopers Offline
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« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2013, 12:12:50 pm »

We had to watch a video in physics this week about E=MC2, and one of the german officials was the german commander from CoH2, it was pretty funny how and what he said
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Shabtajus Offline
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The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2013, 12:14:33 pm »





which you know could probably all be fixed with modding tools so you can all blame PQ on that one.




LOL
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Vermillion_Hawk Offline
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Posts: 1282



« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2013, 04:19:49 pm »

So your answer is that they steamlined every feature and in other words cut essential parts and dumbed everything down?

No, my answer is that you're an idiot and that you're completely and utterly wrong.

Also yes, of course the capture point system is worse. Now you can capture points in combat, which is not possible in COH nor EIR. The idea is you fight, then you capture points, this is a large part of vCOH gameplay.

You're right, I completely forgot about how in real wars people need to stop shooting at each other first to advance. SMGs and other weapons designed to be used in mobile combat are just silly affectations. Just because it exists in a form in one game does not make it right or a good system, it's simply the system you're used to.

The reason that vCOH doctrines had two trees was so that you could adapt to different situations, people used both sides depending on what they faced. The DLC doctrines are just rehash of the same abilities you already have in different orders and there is no ability to adapt and choose a different tree if you need other abilities.

You prove your ignorance once again, since that was only the first few DLCs that came with the collector's edition. They've already released commanders with new units for both the Soviets and Germans.

The idea that you have only one resource for capture points takes away many strategical parts of the game. The idea that you could focus on munitions for better equipment or fuel for vehicles and manpower for more units and to cut off enemy supply lines was a big part of the game. It was removed for no logical reason.

The focus of the game was always on the High Fuel point or High Munitions point or the cutoff, not the +5 fuel point in some obscure corner of the map. All the new system does is reflect this more accurately, it's not streamlined or dumbed down since you can still specialize points in munitions or fuel by building the respective depot on top of a regular point.

The defence building system is also terrible. You can't place defences where you want them, it's much more restricted, each side doesn't even have basic mines, barbed wire and other defences. Instead they have advanced versions that are more expensive, take more time and cover an entire defensive point, which is then nullified the second the enemy gets there. The entire stategical point of placing defences intelligently to help repel and attack is gone because you can only defend specific points, you can't spread out your defences or build barbed wire to protect your MG from enemy flanking, it's completely dumbed down. Sandbags only offer yellow cover and you have to build an entire wall of them. It makes no sense. Sand bags in vCOH were useful and rewarded good placement but was never overpowered.

You're right, you actually have to think about how defenses are placed and specialized now. It's terrible, people definitely need to think less in every aspect of life. Nobody would buy a game that had any sort of strategic depth that made you think.

It's more like 12% after some grinding, which is a game changer and it means that it's more effective to build the same unit instead of using combined arms.

Ignoring the fact that you don't know that they rebalanced most of the bulletins because you're too stupid to actually provide evidence for any of your inane points, building only one unit, especially Conscripts, will get you killed, regardless of whatever statistical bonuses you receive.
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PonySlaystation Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4136



« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2013, 06:24:17 pm »

No need to be condescending. It's just a friendly discussion. You have to consider that there are potential downsides to many of these changes.

Gameplay comes before realism and the reason that you fight a battle and then capture points is so that the gameplay can remain fluid and the player whom is successful in battle will be able gain time to capture more territory and lay defences. The downside of being able to capture points in combat is that it slows this process down. The defending player can capture points even if he is losing the battle, which inevitably makes it more difficult to drive the enemy away from a point, making for more stale gameplay.

I disagree that the focus always was on the high fuel and mu points because you always had multiple choices. Focus on the outer left and right flank to get more resources but become spread out and suffer from a strategical disadvantage or focus on the middle to gain more VPs but a disadvantage in resources. Focus on the low resource points and gain more manpower and opportunities to flank and cut off enemy supplylines. Focus more on fuel to get more vehicles or focus on mu to get more upgrades. It all depends on how you play and much of this concept is lost.
 
You're right, you actually have to think about how defenses are placed and specialized now. It's terrible, people definitely need to think less in every aspect of life. Nobody would buy a game that had any sort of strategic depth that made you think.

I don't understand how you reach this conclusion. Being heavily restricted in placement and size and favoring larger defences means less ingenuity and less requirements of the player to cleverly plan and build defences.
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Spartan_Marine88 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838



« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2013, 08:32:11 pm »


Gameplay comes before realism and the reason that you fight a battle and then capture points is so that the gameplay can remain fluid and the player whom is successful in battle will be able gain time to capture more territory and lay defences.

One would think that not needing to stop fighting would make the game more fluid and not less as the push would be able to flow through and not halt sector per sector.
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XIIcorps Offline
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« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2013, 08:49:41 pm »

Leta just agree that with the fall of thq and relic, coh 2 is a shadow of what it could have  been
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Spartan_Marine88 Offline
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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2013, 03:45:48 am »

Leta just agree that with the fall of thq and relic, coh 2 is a shadow of what it could have  been

only without modding. its the engine that really made it a world apart with modding i feel coh 2 could be better then the first.
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PonySlaystation Offline
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Posts: 4136



« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2013, 06:43:58 am »

why play the sequel if the first one is better? coh1 even has more players.
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brn4meplz Offline
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Posts: 6952


« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2013, 11:19:05 am »

Pony, half the stuff you've said in here is a lie.


3,604 - Company of Heroes 2
2,556 - Company of Heroes (New Steam Version)
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Baine Offline
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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2013, 12:35:16 pm »

Still no worldbuilder? Seriously?
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tank130 Offline
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2013, 01:38:28 pm »

Still no worldbuilder? Seriously?

We have been told there is no plans to release -dev mod in the foreseeable future. I would assume that means the same for worldbuilder.
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XIIcorps Offline
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2013, 05:36:58 pm »

Pony, half the stuff you've said in here is a lie.


3,604 - Company of Heroes 2
2,556 - Company of Heroes (New Steam Version)
1000 players difference at that particular time
considering one is a 6 yearold game ponies statement still holds merits.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2013, 10:04:26 am »

No it doesn't. Besides I took peak numbers for that day. The current players was more of a difference.

Additionally, more then half the stuff you've said in here has been wrong
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 11:40:04 am by brn4meplz » Logged
AmPM Offline
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Posts: 7978



« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2013, 03:56:10 pm »

Look, it really comes down to being a mediocre game, that really should have been a $20 expansion.

It's not worth buying.
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Spartan_Marine88 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4838



« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2013, 10:15:39 pm »

Look, it really comes down to being a mediocre game, that really should have been a $20 expansion.

It's not worth buying.

The engine was clearly so much more then just a "DLC", It alone was worth the money. Even with the disappointment i feel due to the lack of modding it was still more then worth the price.
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