Underpowered units/upgrades

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[PonySlaystation]

Traditionally a lot of effort has been put to nerf overpowered units, upgrades and doctrines but there are still many underpowered units and upgrades that never get to see the light of day because they offer no competitive advantage.

I'm hoping that now since we are seeing a lot of progress in balance we can test out small changes instead of squabbling over a 5 munition change in price because a lot of these units and upgrades are simply too expensive. So by testing small incremental changes we can see that just by reducing the price a little, their field presence might reach at least a small level. The worst that can happen is that the price needs to be adjusted again but likely it will just make them actually useful.

I have complied a list of underused units and upgrades for reference. While you may not agree with some of my short found arguments, most of these are very rarely used in the mod which is likely because it's intended role is replaced by something more useful. So they should be looked at.



50mm AT halftrack
110 MU is too expensive for it's AT role when Marder costs only 30. Vehicles should be balanced by FU cost primarily and not MU. It is not a competitor to the PaK 38 or M1 57mm because AT guns can fire at each other witouth taking much damage and can be recrewed. The MU is nearly always better spent on tread breaker AT halftracks.

Veteran sergeant
Too expensive for sprint ability. Sprint is most advantageous for units with hand-held AT, panzerfaust or explosvie grenades but aside from Tank Busters and FJ's it's rare for Panzer Elite infantry to get these hence it's more advantageous to use all that MP for more infantry. Sprint does fit the Panzer Elite doctrine of mobile warfare, it's just too much to pay 60 or 40 manpower to get it on a single squad.

M3 halftrack, Sdkfz 251 halftrack and Universal Carrier
220 Manpower is too expensive for simple transport and mobile flanking, it's more expensive than most infantry. It's only used for sniper protection, which is too bad, it has potential for blitzkrieg and armor players who want motorized infantry.

Puma, Staghound, Quad, M8
Cost a lot of manpower. For just half an infantry squad you can get a medium tank. They can be effective, especially at higher veterancy but are avoided by many players because you save a lot of manpower to purchase a tank instead.

50mm upgun puma
Can't hit infantry well, can't compete against more specalized LVs. It's a jack of all trades but is too expensive and high pop to be an effective support unit. The pumas unlike T17, Stags, Quad and M8 are not affected by any buffs in any doctrine except terror T1.

8 cm Granatwerfer 34 and M2 mortar
Cost too much manpower. They pack a little more punch than infantry but 480 manpower for axis mortar and 350 for allied? That's two grenadiers. I think mortars are often avoided because of this. They still have some field presence because of the newbie advantages but it's rare to see support focused players with mortars. If not for the newbie advantage, we would never see mortars.

Commandos and Airborne Riflemen
Crippled by unreasonably high pool costs. Airborne Riflemen should not cost so much more MU, MP and pool just because they have paradrop.

Churchill MK VI and AVRE
Supposedly the british heavy tanks, they don't measure up against axis heavy tanks or the churchill BBQ tank.

Incendiary grenades
They have practically no impact damage and the fire over time is only useful to deny buildings. It's too bad because panzer elite could really use decent grenades so they don't always need a mortar halftrack or sniper nearby to counter support weapons. If you make it a multi-purpose grenade for both anti-building and anti-inf then it can be balanced by a higher cost.

FJ, Volksgrenadier, Tommie grenade unlock, Airborne Riflemen grenades and Luftwaffe slow mines
Should not be 5 MU more expensive than non-unlocks. They offer exactly the same deal, except to a different squad.

Wirbelwind, Flakpanzer IV and M3 Lee
Does not seem to pack any serious punch even when using their immobile focus fire ability. The Ostwind and Sherman Croc are far superior.

30. Cal HMG
250 MP is too much, the German HMG which has superior range is only 20 MP more.

Mustard Gas
I think it may have have been overnerfed. It doesn't do much damage, not effective support or area denial.

ANZAC's
Not nearly as durable as Commandos, KCH, Rangers or other elite infantry despite being very pricey. Could use an additional squad member.

Support Grenadiers
I know they are fire support but they are very fragile and not particularly useful for a reward unit. Maybe you could give them a second LMG and increase their price a bit.

Jagdpanzer IV
It has StuG turret, Panzer IV armor and Panther gun but with upgrades it's considerably more expensive than a Panzer IV and almost pricier than two StuGs. Hence it offers no advantage over regular german tanks. It's better to get the cheaper StuGs or more expensive and much more versatile Panther. Should get a fuel decrease since it's role is heavily specalized or better frontal armor so it can actually be a decent tank destroyer and reward unit. There are 10 for sale in the market for what is practically peanuts. People do not want them with their current stats and price.

Volksgrenadier MP40s
60 MU is too expensive for such a small upgrade. The price of an upgrade should be determined by the weapon and the survivability of the unit. In the case of MP40s, volksgrenadiers are rarely able to withstand much damage in close combat which is why the upgrade should not be almost full price of other upgrades. Grenadiers are a superior choice with their long range LMG firepower for almost the same MU. The volksgrenadiers are supposed to be cheaper but more numerious but it does not apply to MP40s. Grease guns tend to be a bit more effective because riflemen have more health, accuracy buffs in Infantry doctrine and can have access to smoke grenades which allow them to get in close without suffering too much damage. But their price may also need to be adjusted.

FJ Marksman
Should not still be a reward unit.

Marines
For allied grenadiers, 300 manpower a lot more than regular grenadiers and it's a reward unit. I think their price may have been increased by too much.

Elite Grenadiers
Not underpowered but it would make sense if they were affected by doctrine buffs that affect regular grenadiers.

Assault
They throw all the grenades in the same spot and you have click furiously to use it to good effect. Very difficult to use, very small gain. Should work like the PIAT ambush so that they ambush and throw grenades when infantry comes near.

Piats
Too expensive to be effective AT support.

[NightRain]

Pony- how much of this stuff did you research before you posted?

50mm more range? No, it has same range as any anti tank unit. 60. Pak40 has 60, 57mm has 60, Marder has 60, 6pndr has 60 and so fort.

The reason sprint is expensive is because for instance on units with fire up- they have a negative drawback with it. Sprint has no drawback aside of the fact that it does not break suppression.

Halftracks and carriers are pretty useful- mostly the Universal carrier due to ability for infantry to shoot out of. M3 and WM Halftrack however not so great and I do agree that one might take a look on those two- but what to do to them? Regardlessly what you do to them, they die to 2 anti tank gun shots or a single mass volley of handheld AT weapons.

The light vehicles are expensive is surprising to me as well, but I remember times when Staghounds ruled and T17s were out of control. Luckily those days are past. Nowadays their advantage comes from speed and ability to haras, one could take a look on them.

50mm Upgun Puma is supposedly a light vehicle hunter. It doesn't look much, its damage is laughable, but that is its intended role. Hunt light vehicles. very few can escape Puma 50mm so it can shy away light vehicles and even gang on a tank with a pair of them. Fireflies tend to hate these vehicles for some reason.

Mortars are expensive due to the damage they can cause. WM is more expensive due to its longer range while US has shorter one and British one has a stonethrow range. The only reason people SHY away from them is because of offmaps. Why would I use a stuka run on a anti tank gun that it wont take out? It will however one shoot a enemy mortar which annoys me more than a single at gun. Why do I drop offmap ontop of a mortar instead of a infantry blob? Mortar is more annoying in the longer run but that is just my way of doing things. Mortars and their role of mini artillery to force enemy to react to it, its good at its task. Why people wont use it is prolly offmaps and or range issues.

Agree on this one. Stormtroopers are pretty much equal to grenadiers with difference in upgrades and 15 more hitpoints persquad. Oh 60 more manpower as well ontop of a cloak. This is fine because we are looking at non-doctrine upgrades.Red Devil Mandos will tear a new one at anything that comes at it especially if theres a lieutnant nearby. I forgot about airborne riflemen, did they have fire up? If not, their only ability is deployment anywhere on the map.

Churchills are crap, everyone knows about this, just what is there to do about them.

American '30 cal however costs only 20 munition. Its not great, but it will get its job done. Its also more accurate and thus causes more damage.

Jagdpanzer 4 is not a pz4. It is a StuG, it is a StuG with 600 health and ability to aquire a Panther gun. If it had P4 armor, it'd be a shit machine, but it does not. It has StuG's frontal. Its standard gun seems to be StuG's gun, with 1 second faster reload. Also ontop of it, because it has Panther's gun it has 47.5 range instead of 40 of normal tanks. This means it can FIRE at targets that would normally be shooting BACK at it.

Riflemen have less HP than volksgrenadiers. 55 compared to 60. The only thing Rifles HAVE is 6th squadmember. When bought GGs Rifles get 4 of them while all 5 volksgrenadiers get theirs. Ontop of onfield survival medkits increases volksgrenadier squads combat effectiveness for a longer duration. However as GG = MP40 their MOVING accuracy is terrible, which is WHY people SHUN them. 0.2 accuracy on the move is shit. Plus if you go equipping volksgrenadiers with Mp40s it is only semi effective assault unit. It has normally zero grenades, but it has light AT available to it.

Rest is sort of questionable. Def FJ marksman is useless rw card and Elite Grenadiers are just, I have no word of what they are supposed to be. A grensquad with just 4 G43s and ability to get 4 upgraded brenguns. They are nothing special, they have no inspiration or anything.

[PonySlaystation]

I'm not here to argue. This is just my observation of things that I rarely or never see being used in the mod. If people shun them then it's not balanced.

[XIIcorps]

DA ROO

Nuff said

[NightRain]

I'm not here to argue. This is just my observation of things that I rarely or never see being used in the mod. If people shun them then it's not balanced.

I threw in corrections and some of my own opinnions so. I'm here to give you a piece of an advice- advice even Hicks would appriciate. Get Corsixs. Its free, its easy to use, there are tutorial even on this forum how and where to get it and how to set it up. Then your observations become more reliable and more stats worthy to pay attention to instead of assumptions such as JP4 has P4 armor and Riflemen have more health than volksgrenadiers.

[PonySlaystation]

I have corsix. Riflemen squad health is 330, volksgrenadier squad health is 300.

[NightRain]

I have corsix. Riflemen squad health is 330, volksgrenadier squad health is 300.

I've been talkin shit. Volksgrenadier model health is 60 and riflemen 55.
THUS: The health difference comes because Riflesquad has 1 extra model in comparison to volksgrenadiers. 6 men in comparison to 5 men. That is why Riflesquad has more health, but it is only half health of a single Volks model more.

[XIIcorps]

50mm AT Halftrack 300MP 165M 0F (Cheaper than Shreks)
Marder 300MP 30M 150F

PE are meant to capitalize on mobility, not have head on engagements with ATG's, as such their munition based anti tank gun is mobile; the reason it costs munitions is because the point of it is to be used when there is no fuel for AT (for example, an IST company); also, if it cost fuel, it would be competing with the Marder.

Exactly tiggy, I recall the whole argument for the 50mm HT being that it fills the void of PE's lack of an ATG.
It has Pak 38 50mm stats for the gun on a HT chassis and is there for more vulnerable to AT and HHAT then most Atgs

[aeroblade56]

(not in the mood for once),

Babe you never in the mood anymore

[XIIcorps]

Babe you never in the mood anymore

Rape!