[All] Light Vehicle Metagame

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[TheWindCriesMary]

There have been a lot of positive things to come out of having no form of pool in the mod: limitless potential for creativity and innovation, new and interesting strats, unexpected combinations and a greater level of personal flair in making companies.

But one thing this has also highlighted is the power of light vehicles to, in the right circumstances, dominate the metagame.

As anyone who has seen (or been) an experienced player using LVs in large numbers can tell you (flammens, AC's, T17s, hotches, Greyhounds) these units have the very real potential to earn drastically more than their cost in games when used in overwhelming numbers. As an EiR engagement is typically a delicate balancing act between not what you have in your company, but how adaptable what you have on the field is to changing circumstances and waves of enemy units (you may wipe out an opponents all tank core with a pure AT call in only to find his second wave is pure anti-inf as an example).

In this respect, LV's are by far among the most adaptable of all units in the game. Some like T17s excel vs infantry, support weapons, other LV's and (in some cases like Hotches or Stuarts.... and in large enough numbers) versus some tanks. They can also outrun their main counters if they find themselves outmatched.

The result is that LV's in the current metagame without pool (and arguably even with) are potentially a little too effective. Especially given how versatile they can be. As an example earlier mentioned, you can buy 10 or so T17s on US and have them cap, repair on the move, repair x2, travel at high speeds etc. The problem also exists with ACs, flammens and hotches but in different specific characteristics.

Potential General Solutions:

- Scale price based on amount of a specific unit (your 8th AC costs more than your 4th)
- Add a hard cap for LVs (probably the weakest solution)
- Reduce versatility of LVs (remove capping capability as an example)
- Limit repairs
- Others?

[GrayWolf]

- Scale price based on amount of a specific unit (your 8th AC costs more than your 4th)

Best idea ever.

[Shabtajus]

what happened to dat guy wind ''all limits'' is bad for a game?

[skaffa]

Wind has good point. Was able to build a 32 flammenwerfer coy the other day. It ruins game for opponent tbh.

[aeroblade56]

Skaffa has a good point. Was able to build a 20 armored car company the other day. it ruins the games for opponents tbh

[TheWindCriesMary]

Yeah I did like 16 AC's the other day on top of 8 dual shrek clown cars, all with reduced inc. damage, speed, overdrive cooldown AND trip moving repairs.


That is too much evil for any one man to possess.  Same with dem flammens

[GrayWolf]

Yeah I did like 16 AC's the other day on top of 8 dual shrek clown cars, all with reduced inc. damage, speed, overdrive cooldown AND trip moving repairs.

I still remember how much pain you dealt to my AVREs

[Shabtajus]

not long enough every1 and his grandmother were cursing limits to company builds and chearing ''hahha if i meat spam it faills via lack of dimentional company purposes'' now every1 wants limits to be back again

i dont get wind

[Smokaz]

The bigger metagame is the pool system. And it's what the community wanted.

[GrayWolf]

not long enough every1 and his grandmother were cursing limits to company builds and chearing ''hahha if i meat spam it faills via lack of dimentional company purposes'' now every1 wants limits to be back again

i dont get wind

It's not about limits. It's about spamming specific unit. Not like different types of infantry, just the same fucking unit.

[Shabtajus]

It's not about limits. It's about spamming specific unit. Not like different types of infantry, just the same fucking unit.

look garry if i will spam only and only inf trust me it will fuck up game too, aint u was QQing than i had 1 atg and nothing but AB rfls? hordes of inf rapes same like as LW spam do just KDR looks bad but at the end of the day  inf spam still wins

[Smokaz]

Hordes of inf is not a problem in itself, but it can be nasty when they are good at capping. I find hordes of inf fun to play against, as long as I'm allowed to play for more than 15-20 minutes.

Remember, hordes of inf gives GOOD XP.

[PonySlaystation]

With correctly balanced units and unit costs the optimal company should be a versatile company so that you can counter a wide variety of builds, there shouldn't be need for restrictions and light vehicles for the most part are manpower heavy and require a lot of micromanagement to be effective. I think that the specific scenarios that have been mentioned are problems because of some units and abilities that are not properly balanced.

T17 - Is essentially an 8 pop ostwind that can cap. Capturing territory with light vehicles is obviously an issue. It's a lot faster than capturing territory with infantry and they can hold territory, so you have to send AT all the way to the end of a sector and then it can just move away.

Panzerschrecks in PE halftracks - Since halftracks count as garrison, schrecks firing out of the halftrack will have almost 100% accuracy, this removes the only weaknesses the schrecks have, which is bad accuracy and low mobility. It's incredibly powerful when used to hunt down tanks. Do a little flanking, hit the rear of the tank with 90% accuracy and destroy it in 3-4 hits. It's a very powerful alpha strike unit, especially if you are using it in your start core with an IST because of how pop effective it is, it decimates any player starting in R+.

Flammenwerfer halftracks - I've seen some players run a company with only this unit and they tend to fail horribly at it. If facing any kind of AT heavy allied player they are destroyed almost instantly without being able to do any damage (the same goes for armored cars). But considering how deadly they can be, it could be balance issue, it's not really limited in terms of munitions or fuel. Flamethrowers cost a lot of muntiions, crocodile tanks cost a lot of fuel, flammenwerfer halftrack do not.

[GrayWolf]

Remember, hordes of inf gives GOOD XP.

And are easier to counter.

[Smokaz]

Stay on topic

[tank130]

With correctly balanced units and unit costs the optimal company should be a versatile company so that you can counter a wide variety of builds, there shouldn't be need for restrictions and light vehicles for the most part are manpower heavy and require a lot of micromanagement to be effective. I think that the specific scenarios that have been mentioned are problems because of some units and abilities that are not properly balanced.

T17 - Is essentially an 8 pop ostwind that can cap. Capturing territory with light vehicles is obviously an issue. It's a lot faster than capturing territory with infantry and they can hold territory, so you have to send AT all the way to the end of a sector and then it can just move away.

Panzerschrecks in PE halftracks - Since halftracks count as garrison, schrecks firing out of the halftrack will have almost 100% accuracy, this removes the only weaknesses the schrecks have, which is bad accuracy and low mobility. It's incredibly powerful when used to hunt down tanks. Do a little flanking, hit the rear of the tank with 90% accuracy and destroy it in 3-4 hits. It's a very powerful alpha strike unit, especially if you are using it in your start core with an IST because of how pop effective it is, it decimates any player starting in R+.

Flammenwerfer halftracks - I've seen some players run a company with only this unit and they tend to fail horribly at it. If facing any kind of AT heavy allied player they are destroyed almost instantly without being able to do any damage (the same goes for armored cars). But considering how deadly they can be, it could be balance issue, it's not really limited in terms of munitions or fuel. Flamethrowers cost a lot of muntiions, crocodile tanks cost a lot of fuel, flammenwerfer halftrack do not.

T17 - Not a problem unless it is spammed. Nerfing or changing it would be over nerfing it for a player that only uses 1 or 2

Panzerschrecks in PE halftracks - Not a problem unless it is spammed. Nerfing or changing it would be over nerfing it for a player that only uses 1 or 2

Flammenwerfer halftracks - Not a problem unless it is spammed. Nerfing or changing it would be over nerfing it for a player that only uses 1 or 2 (and one or two is pretty fucking useless)



It is exactly why the pool system was implemented in the first place. Resources & Pop just don't handle balance when it comes to hordes. There needed to be another element of balance.

- Scale price based on amount of a specific unit (your 8th AC costs more than your 4th)

I only suggested this like 100 times over the last 4 years. Good luck determining the sliding scale resource cost of all the units people will claim need it.........

[TheWindCriesMary]

T17 - Not a problem unless it is spammed. Nerfing or changing it would be over nerfing it for a player that only uses 1 or 2

This is not accurate. There is absolutely no justification for a LV with tremendous anti inf/support weapon capability to have easy potential to gain even more incredible speed on top of its health, dodge etc. Throw on 2x repairs, moving repairs, and the abillity to cap and it's a roadshow circus act.

This unit is currently far too effective for its cost and has unbalanceable attributes. Even 1 in the hands of a decent player can rack up 10-15 kills no problem without breaking a sweat.

Starting with a small adjustment and adding more as neccessary in increments will not ruin the unit but can bring it more in line with reason.

[Smokaz]

One thing that's offtopic but sort of ontopic: I would suggest not getting so worked up guys. Summer is legendary for being pretty slow for EIRR. Try to work with what you have.

What you have is the ability as players to stop spamming and hosting some games where you don't play so hard to win. Or try to use a lot of different units together.

You can't control patches, but you can control each other.

[tank130]

This is not accurate.

Except that it is very accurate. The T17 was not considered a problem unit until you could spam the hell out of them.

Prior to the removal of pool, the T17 was just as powerful, but limited to a point where you could eliminate it with a reasonable effort and acceptable unit loss. Now with them arriving in hordes you will have to give up too many assets to eliminate them all.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Except that it is very accurate. The T17 was not considered a problem unit until you could spam the hell out of them.

I've seen you raise this reasoning in a few balance threads now and it's extremely problematic. "Not considered" is not the same as "not a problem". Whether a unit is OP or unbalanced is not contingent on whether someone notices it or it becomes generally realized. It can be a sign that a unit is OP, but it is not essential for a unit to be OP nor does it preclude that possibility.

In fact in a small playerbase sometimes months can go by where a unit is unbalanced before someone picks up on it and either exploits it or flags it. This is especially true for fringe units that are not frequently used such as doctrine unlock units (stummels, t17s, Mark IV churchills and flame sappers). Some units are immediately obvious as problems from day one, while others are niche or overlooked until one of the mod's few tinkerers decides they're going to try and min max a previously overlooked unit. It is actually a logical fallacy to believe that, in order for a unit to be overpowered, it has to be "noticed" and that any problems can and would be noticed shortly after each patch.

The t17 in its current iteration was unbalanced from day 1. It just took a while for guys like me or Keeps to decide to try them out and prove it. With the bottom T4 it caps and moves  super fast while repairing on top of having 2x repairs. Add this to a terrific and cost effective base unit and it's a major problem. It is objectively unbalanced regardless of whether one or 10 of them are fielded. More just aggravates the base problem.