[PE] Hotchkiss

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[TheWindCriesMary]

The Problem: Hotchkisses are far too effective for their cost, vastly outperform other LVs that are meant to serve similar roles and in numbers are swaying games considerably on their own.

The Suspected Causes: 45 range (seriously, it's incredible they got this amazingly over powered feature), high ROF combined with a reasonable pop cost, good speed and decent dodge.

Suggested Solution: Reduce range to 40 and monitor over a 2-3 week period to see if additional changes are necessary.

[nikomas]

Oh trust me you're not the only one who noticed that one... Pretty crazy oddity, that one. Personally I think the upgun hotch has more issues than that range, what with the highest anti-veh dps iirc.

[Korpisolttu]

What do you think about upgun and walking stuka?

[nikomas]

He must be talking about the upgun hotch, the regular hotch is pretty unremarkable and does not have a high rate of fire (relative.)

[TheWindCriesMary]

He must be talking about the upgun hotch, the regular hotch is pretty unremarkable.

This is to the contrary to what has been  happening in the current metagame.

I know on paper it might seem unlikely, but this is a good example of how intuition based on stats can sometimes not totally reflect in game realities. As an example, good players like Korps are regularly getting dozens of kills and dominating games with unupgunned hotches. To test it out the other day, I tried running 3 of them in a company and sailed around effortlessly racking up infantry and support weapon kills way beyond the investment I put in. It required little or no serious work or effort. And I don't even want to talk about what happens when t3s/t4s get unlocked and we start facing tripple repair hotches on the move or Quick Response Luft ones.

Upgun is a tremendous cost effective tank destroy in small packs. Well used, 2 of them can demolish a Pershing. I haven't experimented with these yet (will try in the next few days) but can someone attest to how they are performing in game?

Hotch Stuka is the problem of the non-upgun added with even more versatility and destructive power. Even medium players can rack up 30 kills on one in a game without breaking much of a sweat. (happened in 2 games that I was in last night that were fairly balanced teams)

[NightRain]

Key word we are looking in this particular vehicle is Numbers.

With 2 its 16 pop. While Hotchkiss is maneuverable it isn't the fastest light vehicle out in the market but it has a very good gun. Low damage on hits but it shoots fast. Their infantry accuracy isn't even decent but it is quite poor (if squad moves around it wont hit often) but against mediums it is good. A single hotchkiss effectiveness is not great despite its DPS potential. It can be used as a sniper versus common mediums.

But wind is right. 2 of those can take on a pershing. It is PE's M10 so to speak.

[Korpisolttu]

Nooo.. not my stuka hotses
I really don't know, but it seems stuka shoots slower than normal hots?
Also like said, it has very weak armor and HP, so I have to babysit them which obviously might cost mapcontrol. I use their mainguns only if I have ketten scouting or I'm most certain there's no AT.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Key word we are looking in this particular vehicle is Numbers.

With 2 its 16 pop. While Hotchkiss is maneuverable it isn't the fastest light vehicle out in the market but it has a very good gun. Low damage on hits but it shoots fast. Their infantry accuracy isn't even decent but it is quite poor (if squad moves around it wont hit often) but against mediums it is good. A single hotchkiss effectiveness is not great despite its DPS potential. It can be used as a sniper versus common mediums.

But wind is right. 2 of those can take on a pershing. It is PE's M10 so to speak.

A few points here:

1) Unupgun hotch has amazing inf accuracy and damage. On top of being able to rival greyhounds or T17s in kills over the course of a game, they also have the added benefit of being able to demolish these similar LVs/light tanks while taking little or no damage in return. Stuarts can damage them reliably but lack any kind of reliable Ai capaibility.

2) Very true that upgun hotches have poor inf accuracy and damage and are similar to stuarts in most respects. I feel other than their range (unless I'm wrong, which isn't impossible, and they don't share the 45 range of unupgun hotches or stuarts have that high range too). Even one can, even if it dies, force a crom or sherman to repair. If used well they can even win. That's fantastic performance for their cost but I don't feel their AT capability is overpowered. Just the range and ROF are suspect.

[CrazyWR]

best comp for me for a non-upgun hotch is a cromwell tbh.  They hurt infantry quite a bit, but can't stand up to tanks.  Once you get a hotch to vet2, it gets a 20% accuracy buff and things get absolutely silly.

[TheWindCriesMary]

best comp for me for a non-upgun hotch is a cromwell tbh.  They hurt infantry quite a bit, but can't stand up to tanks.  Once you get a hotch to vet2, it gets a 20% accuracy buff and things get absolutely silly.

True, though unless I'm wrong I don't think crom has the same dodge capacity or range? Those two areas I think make them similar, but the Hotch overall superior considering its cost and pop requirement.

[CrazyWR]

Not the same dodge capacity, but slightly bigger gun/better speed to escape with?  I agree hotch performs better in the AI role, although the croms ability to do slightly more is nice occasionally.  It was the best comp I could come up with, and maybe it will help people understand what the non-upgun is capable of instead of always saying it sucks.  It definitely does not suck.

[aeroblade56]

Well as far as i can tell the hotchkiss has more damage than anyother ingame.

if we are comparing to  stuarts( close enough)

 a hotchkiss does 75 damage.
a stuart does 65 damage.
and i think 50 of the greyhound(notsure).

of course the stuart has a nifty modifier vs pretty much all PE stuff.
.

the stuart can attain a decent range with of course a vet 2 cct but there is a cost to the CCT.

i do not know if the hotchkiss has good splash or not but i have seen it kill 2 men at once.

[nikomas]

Never said it sucked, I said it's unremarkable and that's a big difference.

I also resent your implications wind, given I've used hotches quite a bit more than most people around here.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Never said it sucked, I said it's unremarkable and that's a big difference.

I also resent your implications wind, given I've used hotches quite a bit more than most people around here.

But you've told me multiple times in Steam and in-game chat you think unupgunned hotches are absolutely silly powerful and you can't believe more people don't spam them given how insanely effective they can be. Something you've proven time and time again when you ran tons of them and dominated games.

You were right and none of this was unethical or wrong and I mean that. But the important takeaway is that saying they're unremarkable now to me doesn't reflect the reality of how they perform in game or how they've been employed.

You said this as especially true when used with Quick Response.

[nikomas]

Sure, that's why I assumed you were talking about up-gunned hotches.

I don't agree with the point about regular hotches being amazing killing machines given that I find those rather unremarkable.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I don't agree with the point about regular hotches being amazing killing machines given that I find those rather unremarkable.

Again though finding them unremarkable goes against not only what you've told me multiple times, but also the many in-game examples (especially from when you were running them en masse with certain docs) that show just how incredibly powerful they can be. Some people now are running them with little or no doc bonuses (myself included as a test last week) and finding similar results. Terrapin consistently can rack up 40 kills on his Hotch Stukas in balanced games without much difficulty, going from 0 to vet 2. Korps can get 3-4 Hotches with 20 kills in a decent game no problem. Multiple players are getting far more out of these things than they should consistently be providing for their cost.

I think the in-game evidence has more than borne out that a 45 range, inf sniping, high rof, fast, great dodge vehicle at the hotches' price point is too remarkable for where it should be...especially compared to its axis and allied counterparts.

[nikomas]

Again though finding them unremarkable goes against not only what you've told me multiple times [Snip]

Fucks sake Wind,

"Sure, that's why I assumed you were talking about up-gunned hotches."

Regular and upgun hotches are VASTLY different and I've never said much at all about the regular hotch, why in the world are you speaking about them as if they were the same thing? If you somehow remember me saying that unupgunned hotches are killing machines then you'll have to dig that out, because my beef was only ever with upguns.

The only thing that I ever thought made regular hotches "Really good" is quick response, and that's doctrine not unit.

[aeroblade56]

imo i can barely get 15 kills in my artillery :l

[TheWindCriesMary]

We're seeing unupgunned hotches rack up dozens of kills with little or no difficulty consistently in the hands of multiple players in multiple in-game circumstances. Coupled with the stuka addition they are regularly earning 25-40 kills.

They are fast, have tremendous ROF, 45 range, great armour (vs other lvs) and are relatively cheap in both resources and pop.

This is in the post-reset metagame, so we can pretty easily extrapolate what happens when Quick Response or Spare Parts etc. come into play.

The substantial in-game evidence regular and active players are seeing every day at the moment is overwhelming.

[nikomas]

I do however think that you make a GREAT example for why the "I play a lot so I know balance better, no need for stats" approach falls flat footed.

I think the in-game evidence has more than borne out that a 45 range, inf sniping, high rof, fast, great dodge vehicle at the hotches' price point is too remarkable for where it should be...especially compared to its axis and allied counterparts.

Alt

They are fast, have tremendous ROF, 45 range, great armour (vs other lvs) and are relatively cheap in both resources and pop.

Sure thing wind, let's have a loot at the 37mm Hotchkiss Gun... Oh My!

Range 45? Try 40. Same as the allied counterparts.
High Rof? 4-6 Seconds is fast compared to what? A Sherman reloads in 6.
Speed? 6.5, an M8 is 6.4

Whatever the problem with the unit is, if there is indeed a problem... Well, it's clearly comparable to allied vehicles in these areas and as for the armor you do realize the 37 hotch will bounce off stuart armor, right?